General Questions Not Yet Answered

[jason_c]

Not sure where i stand on the self respect issue. Other than these women walked the streets largely to fund a drink habit. The most obvious comparison is with todays prostitutes funding a drugs habit, there's little self respect going on in either prostitute or punter.

As for payments, I would bet that money changed hands before any physical encounter. These women were street smart prostitutes. Money would be paid up front. This was likely demanded in the Ripper's case too.

Wether he ever got as far as handing money over before attacking them is another matter. As no money was found on the victims it does give a hint to a working class Ripper scenario.

[Sam Flynn]

I wish people would stop talking about "prostitutes". We're mainly talking about superannuated casual prostitutes - not young professional hookers - for whom prostitution wasn't the only means of getting a little bit of money. They were just as likely to have begged, accepted a charitable donation, sold trinkets for a few coppers, as they were to have sold sexual services.

The obsession with "prostitution" - created and fed by some books and most of the visual media over the years, and exacerbated by modern perceptions of the sex trade - is a major stumbling block that we must get over if we are to understand the social dynamics of the Victorian slums.

[Septic Blue]

I wish people would stop talking about "prostitutes". We're mainly talking about superannuated casual prostitutes - not young professional hookers - for whom prostitution wasn't the only means of getting a little bit of money. They were just as likely to have begged, accepted a charitable donation, sold trinkets for a few coppers, as they were to have sold sexual services.

And we should also stop assuming that these women inherently abided by some sort of 'canon', with regard to their 'business' practices.

I think we can rest assured (I know I can) that while some of the 'dolly-mops' who tended to congregate in the rookeries of Dorset Street and Flower & Dean Street, in the Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields, had the fortitude to demand payment before rendering 'services', others most certainly did not; … that while some of these vagrants might have insisted that 'business' be conducted in places of their choosing, others would most certainly have followed the offer of a few pennies into any secluded spot in the whole of the metropolis; … that while etc…

[John Bennett]

And we should also stop assuming that these women inherently abided by some sort of 'canon', with regard to their 'business' practices.

I think we can rest assured (I know I can) that while some of the 'dolly-mops' who tended to congregate in the rookeries of Dorset Street and Flower & Dean Street, in the Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields, had the fortitude to demand payment before rendering 'services', others most certainly did not; … that while some of these vagrants might have insisted that 'business' be conducted in places of their choosing, others would most certainly have followed the offer of a few pennies into any secluded spot in the whole of the metropolis; … that while etc…

Absolutely. We can probably never know for sure the exact 'working practices' of individual women drawn to that particular 'profession'. There were probably all manner of ways and means.

[Suzi]

Exactly John and Colin

I would question how many people/posters these days could even begin to imagine being totally homeless and walking the streets for let's face it a lot more than 4d for a Gin/Doss.

Of course there are many poor souls of both sexes, carrying the modern 'banner', which must not be ignored.

This is not the modern day heroin/crack habit- which I'd imagine costs a lot more -but of course the problems are the same -ditto the risks- always the chance of not making the cash or being 'damaged' shall we say-by an over zealous/lunatic client. That still exists I'm sure.

What we're talking about here in the LVP was just a toddle out of a common lodging house- not having the required 4d or whatever- onto the dank foul streets to find a 'customer' willing to part with some coin for a 'jiggy' in an unspeakable alley full of things best not imagined- so that a woman could finally grab some sleep in what passed for a bed- probably feeling cold,filthy,tired and fairly hopeless.... until tomorrow when the whole thing started again- OK they probably 'Spent the doss money four times over' but Hey ... that numbness probably helped against the horror, the cold,the wet and the emptiness- and that's before they even started thinking about The Ripper- which was probably the least of their worries....'Don't fear for me' etc etc .......

Suz x

[babybird67]

this is a very interesting discussion

perhaps the tag 'prostitute' serves as a label which boxes up the women, and prevents us from, as Sam says, seeing the reality of what it was like for the poor, or poor women in particular, in Victorian slums.

I remember Stewart Evans kindly posting up some images of the death certificates in which 'profession' had been filled in as 'prostitute'...i can't remember if this was the case for all the victims, but going on my memory i think it was at least three.

My question in reference to this is, was there at that time any sense of public reaction management? Was there any attempt to perhaps portray the women as more than just casually falling into the occasional act of prostitution simply to allay the fears perhaps of more 'respectable' women at the time...a deliberate act of news management, of seeking to reduce any spreading of fear or of indicating to the 'respectable' that they weren't at risk? Or is this me speculating in my modern mind something which never would have occurred to the authorities at the time? If someone more knowledgeable than me (and there's a lot of you out there!) could address this point for me i'd be most grateful.

[Septic Blue]

We can probably never know for sure the exact 'working practices' of individual women drawn to that particular 'profession'. There were probably all manner of ways and means.

"individual women"

"all manner of ways and means"

Very well stated, John!

[Suzi]

Hi Jen

Yes I'd imagine the respectable residents occasionally 'drifted' into a bit of 'prostitution' when times were 'ard or the rent man was due -I mean who would suspect when you were just returning the odd plate or two!! (Ooops)

Who was going to make a point of the poor dabs 'work' when the census man came a calling- that's a point-

I wonder who did and who filled in those lines in the workhouse!.....

A man or a woman?? That's a thought....

- Hmmmmm don't even start me on Miller's Ct!!!

[Garry Wroe]

I’m sorry, but since prostitution entails an exchange of money for sexual favours, the Whitechapel victims were indeed prostitutes. What seems to be the case is that these women were casual prostitutes, resorting to commercial sex when all else failed rather than as a first resort. We know, for example, that they resorted to cleaning, needlecraft and charing when the opportunity arose. But the fact remains that, when circumstances dictated, they treated their bodies as a commodity.

As for the issue of self-respect, it is all too easy to judge these women and their compeers by today’s standards. But for them, it was a simple case of survival, of finding food to fill an empty belly, of securing warmth and a bed for the night, of staying out of the hated workhouse. Small wonder that so many of these women sought comfort in alcohol. Rather than castigating them, perhaps we should be looking towards the parliamentary indifference that created such living conditions in the first place.

Best wishes.

Garry Wroe.

[Suzi]

I don't think anyone was castigating anyone- It was, I imagine in most cases purely for survival as I posted below

Yes Garry you have a point there- the Government of the time did/does have a few questions to answer- too late now though!

Mind you- nothing's changed!

[John Bennett]

I’m sorry, but since prostitution entails an exchange of money for sexual favours, the Whitechapel victims were indeed prostitutes.

Perhaps to put the cat amongst the pigeons and this may have been debated before, but:

What about Catherine Eddowes? She lived with John Kelly in the same doss-house for about 7 years. He did not seem aware of her 'walking the streets' in the time he knew her. And yet she was deemed to be penniless on the last day of her life, was going to see her daughter to cadge some money (she never got there) but was so drunk by 8.30pm on the 29th Sept that she was taken into custody.

It does make me wonder where the booze money came from, unless she just blagged drinks off people for the night.

I think it's a good example of how we should'nt be so sure about how the 'destitute' women 'operated'.

[jason_c]

Neither Kelly nor Chapman had any money. Both were on varying ends of the scale when it came to prostitution in the East End slums. I assume Kelly could be more demanding when it came to financial matters with clients, still she was found penniless.

Chapman, Stride and Eddowes were found at well known prostitution spots. What very little we know suggests they knew their business. Even part-time prostitutes could not expect to survive long on the streets with a naieve attitude.

"They were just as likely to have begged, accepted a charitable donation, sold trinkets for a few coppers, as they were to have sold sexual services".

Again, just like todays prostitutes. Many would rather have charitable/state donations or pass on stolen goods than sell sexual services to strangers.

Perhaps im guilty of looking at the victims only as prostitutes rather than rounded human beings. But when it comes to the prostitution trade i think the victims were well versed in the trade.

[lynn cates]

cart and horse

Hello All. Forgive my ignorance if I am mistaken, but didn't Polly and one or two of the other C5 get involved in massive quantities of alcohol BEFORE their hard times hit? If that it correct, it may not be altogether accurate to portray them as drinking to numb the pain of poverty. It may well be that the pain of poverty came about through the abuse of alcohol.

So, which is cart; which is horse?

The best.
LC

[Sam Flynn]

I’m sorry, but since prostitution entails an exchange of money for sexual favours, the Whitechapel victims were indeed prostitutes.

The danger with the term "prostitute" is that it is an over-simplification, which has led to some serious (and often unintentionally hilarious) misconceptions about what these women - and indeed Jack - were all about.

[babybird67]

hi Sam

what do you mean hilarious? Do you have any anecdotes? (i like a good anecdote!)