"A right old Mary Ann"...

[Phil Carter]

I have read, dozens of times, the disussion pertaining to the various names of Mary Kelly..

I'm not entirely certain of this, but I think the Roaring Twenties gave rise to the euphemism "A right old Mary Ann" or "A regular Mary Ann" to mean a male with homosexual leanings. However, Something somewhere tells me that a "Mary Ann" was also used, many years before, to mean a loose woman or prostitute. I am uncertain of this though. Perhaps someone can enlighten me?

In that connection, If Mary Jane, or Jeanette, Kelly, (or Davies) DID create a reputation as a known prostitute amongst the low life of the East End, rather like a Victorian "seamstress" and such like were also known descriptions for prostitution, can we link this to Mary Jane Kelly's name? Maybe we are a little fooled too..
It was known that should a couple be together, then the woman was known by her "gentleman friend's" last name.
So was there a more permanent Mr.Kelly in her life?

And why, if she did marry a Davies or Davies, did she drop the use of her married name? Would her father, who apparently came to London to find her, have been asking for a Kelly or a Davies?

I wonder.

best wishes

Phil

Hmmm

[Limehouse]

Excellent points Phil,

The term 'a right Mary Ann' is known to me as meaning 'a misbehaving female individual'. My auntie, who spent her early years in Dalston, and who knew a lot of old east end sayings, used to say of her female dog 'she's been a right Mary Ann today, (meaning troublesome). However, I think the term may well have been a euphenism for a lady of the prostitute class and fell into general use to refer to a naughty female.

I have also heard the term 'Mary Ann' applied to an effeminate male (also the term 'big girl's blouse!!).

The name combinations 'Mary Ann' and 'Mary Jane' were extremely common in Victorian times, especially among working and trade class people. When I was researching my family tree, I came across endless Mary Anns (none of whom were known as 'Polly' interestingly) and 'Mary Janes'. It is entirely possible that Mary Kelly adopted this common combination to obscure her origins. The name Kelly has obvious Irish connections - but was Kelly Irish? i raised the point some time ago about the accents of the victims. Wouldn't Kelly have had an Irish accent (even a slight one) if she had been bought up with Irish parents (even allowing for spending some time in Wales). Couldn't this accent have helped when identifying her? For example, the lady who claimed to have seen and spoken to Kelly hours after she is supposed to have been dead. Was anything mentioned about the accent of the woman who it is claimed was Kelly on that morning?

[Suzi]

Hi all-
I must check this but I seem to recall that in Cockney rhyming slang a 'Mary Jane' was 'a pain'- may explain a lot 'eh!

Suz x

[Phil Carter]

Hello Suz,

Just had a long telephone conversation or two with two distant and elderly (Over 85) relatives..both from Shoreditch and Hoxton.
They both used to speak "cockney" as an everyday thing, one being an ex market porter.
Neither had ever heard of a "Mary Jane" being a pain. They both concluded that it must be one of the newer (post WW2) lines that were made up more or less "as they went along."
However, according to both of them, the reference to a "Mary Ann" being an old reference to a woman of ill repute, seems to have some foundation of truth. But they added that it was, as I thought, a generation or two before them.
As a sideline, they also said that different areas of the East End used different rhyming slang. Around Bow, for example, used "Golden Band" for hand, whilst in Shoreditch, Haggerston and Hoxton it was a "German Band."

best wishes

Phil

[perrymason]

Hello Suz,

Just had a long telephone conversation or two with two distant and elderly (Over 85) relatives..both from Shoreditch and Hoxton.
They both used to speak "cockney" as an everyday thing, one being an ex market porter.
Neither had ever heard of a "Mary Jane" being a pain. They both concluded that it must be one of the newer (post WW2) lines that were made up more or less "as they went along."
However, according to both of them, the reference to a "Mary Ann" being an old reference to a woman of ill repute, seems to have some foundation of truth. But they added that it was, as I thought, a generation or two before them.
As a sideline, they also said that different areas of the East End used different rhyming slang. Around Bow, for example, used "Golden Band" for hand, whilst in Shoreditch, Haggerston and Hoxton it was a "German Band."

best wishes

Phil

Perhaps this plays a part in why Kate Eddowes used the name Mary Ann Kelly when she is booked into the city jail.

I, like you Phil, am unsure to what extent we should believe that Kelly was anything like her real surname.

Best regards

[Sam Flynn]

Perhaps this plays a part in why Kate Eddowes used the name Mary Ann Kelly when she is booked into the city jail.

So - let's see if I've got this straight, Mike - this drink-befuddled wreck was being deliberately cryptic, rather than simply choosing a rather commonplace woman's name as an alias?

[lynn cates]

nothing

Hello Sam. Well, you must admit, it's better than "nothing."

The best.
LC

[Sam Flynn]

Anything's better than "nothing", Lynn

[perrymason]

I meant maybe her "Mary Ann" referred to the street vernacular for her occupation as Phil suggested.

Cheers Sam

[Rubyretro]

I meant maybe her "Mary Ann" referred to the street vernacular for her occupation as Phil suggested.

Cheers Sam

I remember my (Londoner) Gran referring to a 'Fairy Anne' (good for nothing).

I think it comes from the French -ça ne fait rien ('never mind', or 'not worth bothering about).

edit robably only dates from WWI and comes from San Fairy Anne (same root).

(eek ! did a horrible smiley mysteriously creep into my reply ??).

[Steven Russell]

I definitely recall an episode of "Steptoe and Son" when Albert disparagingly referred to some bloke as a Mary Ann. He meant either a homosexual or an effeminate man.

Best wishes,
Steve.