In the name of honesty...

[Ally]

[QUOTE=Monty;103330]

So presentation matters until the information is released, then its nigh on irrelevant?

It's irrelevant to the degree that no matter how good the presentation is, if the info is balls, it's balls. I said, when the presentation is all we have to go on, then that's what will be judged. And the longer the "tell"' goes on without the "show" portion, the less likely people are to give a rat's ass about the item in question and the less likely they are to believe it once it is released. But yes, in the end, what matters is the document, not the person. But the fact is, the person involved usually can't get over it enough to realize they aren't the key attraction and they are the only ones who suffer by allowing their ego to get in the way of their discovery.

One final point, your take on assessing information when you see it for yourself is admirable. Whilst accepting solely on the words of others is foolish, dismissing just because you havent experience the info is just as careless.

I have never out and out dismissed anything just because I haven't had the experience unless logic dictates that what is being claimed has no plausibility whatsoever. However, there comes a point where, if a person keeps saying they have something, and they don't ever come through, while I may not dismiss the evidence, I will completely dismiss the person.

[Monty]

Ally,

I need to be clear. By 'you' I wasnt referencing you directly.

My experience of your reaction to such news is one of reserved judgement. If memory is true, Ive never known you to criticise information until you have viewed it for yourself.

Monty

[Phil Carter]

Interesting and pleasing thread..

Hello all,

First of all, thank you all for taking an interest in the subject, and using your time upon it.

When I wrote the original posting, I didn't realise, or have a clue, of what direction it would take. To be honest, that never even occured to me. Having now, a few days later, read the responses, I am both surprised and pleased over the responses so far. Thank you!

I was just trying, I suppose, to jog a few conciences. As over 750 "look ins" have occured so far, and I can only hope that someone, somewhere, has been jogged a little into DOING something with what they may have in their posession. Or nudge the person they know to posess them. The "i"s and "t"s benefit from this action.

I can catagorically state that my wish for ALL the official dicuments that ARE out there, be either sent back anonymously to the correct authorities, or even sent to someone who will do the correct thing with them.
The purloining of the OFFICIAL files had been happening for many, many years, until the whole thing came to a stop in the 1980's.

The records offices may or may not have logged lists of who visited during the 70's and early 80's. That is the time period identified by others as to when a greater amount of material went missing. If there hasn't been any book coming from the material taken by now, and because a fair amount of it is known anyway, the mere posession of it is actually pointless. So why keep it?
However, there are documents that are missing who's composition is not known with certainty. It may be that these documents went missing before the "great purloining period" mentioned above. In which case, we are certainly NOT talking about any expected publication... it means they were stolen for other reasons. Possibly just personal interest, personal connection with the investigation by PC XXXX who at the time was on the scene, or even family connections a generation later. Who knows? It is entirely speculation as to who did what and when and why.
But as Suzi correctly points out, it is the hope that something, somewhere, turns up that will set us all off on the trail again.
I sincerely believe that there IS stuff out there waiting for us all to dive in to.

Then we have the problem of the Special Branch Files. I have made my comment on the never ending "you cant see them" OFFICIAL line earlier.
It's about time a time limit WAS put down. In 79 years time it's the 200th anniversary. What POSSIBLE harm to the name of anyone living 200 years after the event could warrent such protection? Thats 8 generations for God's sake! (average age 25 at each birth... 8 x 25 =200)
Clearly an outdated principle. Even the census is only 100 years!

Only a couple of things, I believ I'm corrct in saying, that I know of.. the example being that there are 6, I believe, people in the countries pf GB whose birth certificate details are kept back... sometimes even from the person themselves... for privacy and name protection reasons... and the other example that Debrett's didnt even know of the LIVING existance of two close relatives to The Queen Mother a few years ago, who had been quietly kept away from the knowledge of the entire population for half a century or more because of their mental impediments, in certain homes for that particular disposition. They, Debrett's had been told years before that they had died.

Whilst I don't generally believe in cover-ups, yes, it happens.

Here we come the other side of the coin.. or should I say the other fork in the road. The unofficial documents. Included in this vague catagory are the family heir-looms, letters and such like. Some may only be verbal, but I'm sure there is something physical knocking around. Somewhere.

Lets start with the actual people involved. Somewhere, someone has something from their great great uncle x knowing it is connected with the time he was a policeman involved in the hunt.
Here, there are two very specific divides. Those who were privvy, by rank, to have more of a "hands on" connection to paperwork, letters etc, and those who were more subserviant.
If MacNaghten "destroyed" all HIS material, then it is safe to assume that other high ranking officials had their own cache of material..if only private notes they themselves made..

Then we have the newspaper people, and the immediate and obvious example here is Mr.G.R.Sims. But he was only ONE newspaperman connected not least by interest in the case. ... then there are witnesses, the families around the victims, and of course, the suspects. Even the neighbours. Why?
Remember an Antiques Road Show programme when an old lady came along with a couple of scribbled doodles given to a her driver/father by LS Lowry?
I believe even then the value shocked everyone when the figure ended up at nearly £100,000. The poor lady had no idea. People hold on to the strangest of things. Sometimes because it is old...simply that.

It takes a certain type of person to be able to weedle out who has what from the current owner of any material. Fear of being exposed as posessing anything, being named, that the person's reputation would be tarnished, for example.. the list is endless as to why people don't, or won't reveal what they have to the waiting world. To me, it is all a shame.

If any decendant of any politician or policeman for example (and I have no idea who that could possibly be by the way!) posess an old box of papers of some description, then actually turning them over to anyone...historian, researcher, writer...whoever, would be very difficult. Who to TRUST with this revelation, would be the first,paramount problem, I imagine. And here we touch upon the commentary from this thread earlier. The dog eat dog situation. The first to get the news out problem. And that old twinkle in the background of.. "what's it worth?".

There are so many factors involved, that by sheer design, it could take a very long time for ANYONE to hand over any private papers.
Thanks to certain events the last 20 years, including the "diary" situation, provenance of authenticity shouts LOUD, and FIRST to just about every Ripperologist. Because of such situations also, we, the community, are guilty of cynicism before belief. That in itself can raise temperatures, and even frighten people away from submitting their valued knowledge or posessions.

So what do we do about all this? It seems that it resembles a never ending circle.. as one wrote earlier.. the "damned if you do" syndrome. The Special Branch stuff will need one hell of a lot of lobbying!

What we CAN do is restore the reputation we, as a community have amongst the general public. I for one, despair of "yet another" JTR film made by people that stray away from facts, and although Mr.Johnny Depp is to be congratulated on his acting performance, it is unfortunate that the general public BELIEVE that film as fact. Ladies and gentleman, it was a BLOCKBUSTER SMASH all around the world! So we have a hell's own job to redress the balance of truth.

It is a shame, because others WITHIN this community had done much to get the truth out and across in various TV documentaries.

Here in Norway for example, when Abrahamsen's book came out, because of his Norwegian connection.. that particular version of theory turned into near Gospel truth! I spent coversation after conversation with people who DIDN'T realise where Prince Eddy could have been or really was on the night of the murders, and where the theory fell apart. They just ignored it, and presumed the book was the answer. Echo of a certain Mr. Knight perhaps? Remember how long that little one lasted...or still lasts?

So...all summed up, we have an immense problem.
That is why I started this thread...to break the chain. To get someone, somewhere, to perhaps react. Through sheer honesty and decency.

I repeat to all those who have read this, or may read this.

Please, for the sake of honesty. 121 years after the murders...if you know that you posess, who that anyone else is in posession of, OFFICIAL papers, return them anonymously if need be, to where they should lie.
If you know of anyone in posession of private papers etc, then encourage them to let this community see them.

And should it be that a person has stories to tell, from a relative from way back when.... we must try and bite our tongues before we call judgement.

Wishful thinking? Idealism? Utopia?

SPE mentioned, often in his replies earlier, "it's human nature".

It is also human nature to believe that people DO have the capacity to do the right thing. And human nature to never stop believing in it.

Cynicism may grow stronger, but I will never aloow it to take over. Then we might as well all give up if we give in to that.

Again, I respect you all, each and every one of you. For or against my posting. There was never any personal offence or personal attack meant pointed towards anyone. There are some damned nice people within this community. I recieved some very nice private comments from some immeadiately after my posting. Thank you. I said I stand expecting to be shot at. I want no commendation either. I just want to see a concience or two nudged. Then we can get on with what we all love doing.. crossing "i"s and dotting "t"'s. And maybe a time will come when there will be more answers than questions, instead of the other way around.

best wishes to you all

Phil

P.S. please excuse any spelling mistakes...lol

[Jenni Shelden]

Hi guys,

what a truly interesting thread!

They say never judge a book by its cover - but of course I do everytime I go into a book shop, so do you. You can't purchase a book that doesnt grab your attention in some way.

In terms of judging information and facts. I think it is well established that I have a very cynical view. I think its also fair to say I do on occasion get off my big fat butt and use this to actually check if I am right - and sometimes (Tony) I am right. Sometimes I may be right but so may you. That's when there is room for an argument. I do hate much of the 'commerical aspect' of ripperology, whether it is those people who say - Ripperologists are all evil but look at me ive written a terrible book about a person who clearly wasnt jtr with no foundation but framing him with hysteria and misdirection - or its people who just write things that are obviously stupid - and yet manage to get the big deals and to meet Ricahrd and Judy! Some of the best research with some of the best info in will never even reach an audience wider than those already imbeded in the field.

In the last 9 years i've gone from a pretty naive 16 year old to a fully ingrained member of the 'ripper community'. In this time, you meet people (you get married to other ripperologists!), you learn about Ripperworld, you mature, as in all life you make judgements. I make judgements on people's books before they are out and before i read them if i know of the person and know a bit about them. Whatever their research and however well they present it, if i know them to have a massive ego that is uncontrolable, i deflate their hype. If I know they are a person who is easily lead/seemingly guilable i think twice about the info if they have recieved it from verbal sources. If I know the person is prone to telling lies in the real world, then I assume too that they may well tell lies in their book. If I know them to be devious and scheming, i question where they found their info. If i know them to be honest, desent and hardworking - i really look forward to their book. This is subconscious.

Jenni

[Monty]

Phil,

I second your heartfelt plea on the return of original casepapers, if indeed they are out there.

I believe, rumour dictates, that the Dear Boss and From hell letters are in the hands of a private collector. That, to me, is far most detestable than those who 'present' information as an ego boost.

And I for one try to hold an honest and open mind when presented with new evidence or theory. To judge on the reputation of the presenter is dangerously limiting.

Monty


Monty

[Archaic]

re: Missing Documents

I can catagorically state that my wish for ALL the official documents that ARE out there, be either sent back anonymously to the correct authorities, or even sent to someone who will do the correct thing with them.

I sincerely believe that there IS stuff out there waiting for us all to dive in to.

Hi, Phil, and thanks for starting such an interesting thread.

I've been mulling over these very questions for quite some time now. I was particularly curious as to the 'legal status' of any missing official documents, and wondered who would be judged their 'rightful owner' should they resurface?
I also wondered if at present there is any way to return old documents privately & discreetly?
If there is not, could the individual who comes forward actually be prosecuted for some type of theft or unlawful possession?
Does the British Government offer any type of 'Official Amnesty' to encourage their return?

So when Jon Menges recently announced that Stewart Evans was to be his guest on the next Rippercast and asked us all to submit our questions,
I jumped at the chance to ask Stewart about these matters. (Thanks again to Jon for kindly asking these questions, and to Stewart for kindly answering them. If you haven't already heard the Rippercast titled 'One-on-One with Stewart Evans', I highly recommend it; it was a terrific episode which covered a wide variety of topics. )

One of the more complex questions I posed was this:

Supposing a private collector has in their possession old official documents- would it be possible for them to voluntarily come forward and allow the documents to be examined by experts and copied for the sake of History?
- If they did so, could they retain ownership of these documents?
- Would it matter how long ago these documents had been 'removed' from the official files?
- Can a private individual even have 'legal ownership' of an old official document, or is this categorically impossible because they still belong to the Government, no matter how many years have gone by and how the individual acquired them?

As for your hope Phil that unknown historical treasures still lurk in dusty places, I absolutely agree with you!
I work in Antiques & Appraisals, and I have seen amazing things in people's basements.

Here is an example: Just last year during an Estate Appraisal I found an unpublished photo of important Cheyenne Indian Chiefs taken shortly after the Battle of the Little Bighorn. It was literally just lying in a shoebox in the basement, mixed in with other old photos. What was so remarkable was that it was not a carefully-posed indoor studio shot of the warriors dressed in "white man's" clothing, but an unposed outdoor photo showing the warriors in native garb on horseback with rifles in their hands! I almost fell over when I saw it! Luckily I recognized the men in the photo as key participants in the famous battle- one was actually a contender for having personally killed General Custer!
The owner of the photograph had no idea who they were or why the photo was so important, despite being very knowledgeable in Antiques herself; she was amazed at my excitement. I've had a great interest in American Indians since I was a little girl, and I was sure the photo had never been published and was probably unknown to historians: subsequent research supported this belief.

I can't say anymore about it at the moment as the Estate is involved in legal proceedings, but I urged the owner to contact both the Smithsonian and the Cheyenne Nation. I also explained how she could donate the photo to a non-profit organization where it would be available to historians and in exchange receive a tax write-off for its fair market value, and I wrote up a paper for her detailing why the photo was so significant a piece of American History.
Please Note: This photograph is definitely private property, not a government document, but this case demonstrates how important historical material can lie around unknown for 125 years.

-So far I haven't come across anything Ripper-related, and it's not terribly likely as I live in the U.S., but I assure you am keeping my eyes peeled!

I think it would be wise of the British Government to appeal to the public for assistance in locating and returning missing historical documents, as the U.S. National Archives does... I also think it would be wise for both the UK and US Governments to to consider offering some type of well-advertised "Official Amnesty Period" in which missing documents might be returned without fear of prosecution.

I'd enjoy further discussion of these topics, both on the forums and on future episodes of Rippercast.

Best regards, Archaic

[Cap'n Jack]

And I await some solid, concrete and positive action from Silver, and the lady who recently pm'd me with details of the Cutbush clan.
Stand up and be counted.

[Archaic]

Nothing New?

Going back to page one of this thread:

The argument that a writer or researcher would be foolish to release such material before their work is published is I think a weak one.

Excuse me, but this attitude seems highly illogical to me.

Of course any individual planning to write a book would wish to be able to offer new materials and information about their chosen subject!

If they had nothing new or significant to offer, what would be the point of the book???

Who would want to read it?

And if the book is nothing but a tired re-hash of material everyone already knows and has access to,
what publisher would be so foolish as to waste their time and resources printing and marketing something no one wants to buy?

The end result would be a book you couldn't give away. In fact, it is books of that ilk which are the true products of what you yourself
have termed a would-be author's "ego", not the well-researched books full of interesting historical information which readers eagerly await.

I think you have it backwards.

Archaic

[Supe]

Hi all,

There are, of course, many problems associated with publishing "finds" in the field and full and free disclosure is often not the answer.

Two examples involving Ripperologist magazine come to mind immediately. The first involved a descendant of Joseph Lawende who approached the magazine with what would be the first photograph of Lawende to appear anywhere besides a family reunion. The photo ultimately appeared in Ripperologist and caused something of a sensation. To my knowledge, the photo has only been used once since commercially, and that was with the permission of Ripperologist and the family.

A few months later award-winning author Tim Riordan approached Ripperologist with the first known photograph of Francis Tumblety. Tim had discovered the photo while researching at the New York Historical Society and planned to use it an article he was preparing for Ripperologist. Tim purchased "one-time" use of the photo for a not-inconsiderable sum. And, again, the publication of this first caused quite a stir.

Unfortunately, the image since has been used commercially without permission and without payment to the NYHS. The miscreant responded with a certain amount of legal mumbo-jumbo and while his using the image may not have been illegal it was certainly unethical and casts a bad light on the entire field.

Don.

[Cap'n Jack]

Archaic, you are aptly named, representing a world that should have died out years ago, where the priviliged few held sway over the fair measure of what was right and what was wrong.
It is intrinsically wrong for a genuine researcher not to reveal his or her findings to the interested populace using the swiftest means available... in past years this used to be by the painfully slow medium of the printed and published world, sometimes taking years, but of course today we have the fast track medium called the internet. That is the thing you are using right now, Archaic, and it is a means of channeling information to folks at an astonishing rate of knots, and all for free.
Yet you use this amazing channel of information transportation as a means to espouse the ways of the good old days, when a few masters sat on information for years until their meisterwerk was published and then you all fell over and said what genie they are.
Well grow up, we live in different times, and I will work without pause or relent to ensure that information is passed freely and easily over this marvelous new medium, whilst dinosaurs like you sit in swamps and watch your farts emerge out of the mud.

[Jenni Shelden]

Monty,

I did not mean to imply that I would judge the research based on my feelings towards the researcher, merely that I would bear this in mind when looking at their evidence and conclusions.

All in all, if one is to put acoss a case that is good, whomever they are, it should be applauded. There are people who fall into one of the categories (all of the categories!!) I mentioned above who have done some good research. In sum, for me to believe in a case and not get overly cynical the book/article/thesis should have - references - so i can check up on the facts - not because I actually would, but because if i cant check the facts and the author could easily have enabled me to this smells. It is not transparent, ditto with a bibliography, i want to be able to look quickly and check all the info wasnt from an unreputable source. Finally it should not contain a lot of supposition/theorising that is unsupported in reality. His Dad was a coalminer, his brother was a coalminer, his uncle was a coalminer, his grandfather was a coalminer, it was a natural choice that he should be a coalminer - fine theorising imho 1) it seems logical 2) you can follow the train of thought and the evidence for it. He was unable to read so it was natural he become a coalminer - crap theorising for the opposite reasons imho.

I heard too that the From Hell letter was in a colletors hands - but i thought dear boss was at Kew?


personally i dont see anything wrong with, if one is writing a book and discovers some information, keeping that back for publication fingers crossed no one else finds it. As long as on publication that info is fully referenced. One thing I cannot stand is reading a book where a lot of evidence seems to now be in the authors own collection and therefore unobtainable to scrutinise further.

Jenni

[Monty]

Jenni,

With relection I see your point. Evans versus McCormick or Connell and De Locksley. Yes, good point.

As for your strategem for tackling new evidence or information, I cant fault it.

Cheers
Monty


PS From Hell, according to rumour, is ib a collectors hand in the US. Doesnt Kew have a copy of the Dear Boss, not the original?

[John Bennett]

Doesnt Kew have a copy of the Dear Boss, not the original?

It's the original, Monty.

[Monty]

It's the original, Monty.

I stand corrected.

Monty

[Archaic]

When Worlds Collide?

Archaic, you are aptly named, representing a world that should have died out years ago, where the priviliged few held sway over the fair measure of what was right and what was wrong.
It is intrinsically wrong for a genuine researcher not to reveal his or her findings to the interested populace using the swiftest means available... in past years this used to be by the painfully slow medium of the printed and published world, sometimes taking years, but of course today we have the fast track medium called the internet. That is the thing you are using right now, Archaic, and it is a means of channeling information to folks at an astonishing rate of knots, and all for free.
Yet you use this amazing channel of information transportation as a means to espouse the ways of the good old days, when a few masters sat on information for years until their meisterwerk was published and then you all fell over and said what genie they are.
Well grow up, we live in different times, and I will work without pause or relent to ensure that information is passed freely and easily over this marvelous new medium, whilst dinosaurs like you sit in swamps and watch your farts emerge out of the mud.

Your post is patently ridiculous, as is your opinion in this matter. It is so enlightening to have a person with your sterling reputation presume
to teach me and other honest people the difference between Right and Wrong.

Who are "the privileged few" that you refer to? The successful and well-respected researchers who through their own time, talent, and endeavors actually turn up valuable historical information that other people will be interested in? Skillful authors who write books that others are eager to read? Excuse me, but that just sounds like sour grapes to me.

Though I am younger than you, I agree that I do have some rather old-fashioned ideas; for example, I value the archaic principles of Honor, Courtesy and Integrity which you yourself seem proud to have "evolved" past.

I suppose you'll say that it is archaic and somewhat feminine of me to also believe that an adult man who wishes to be taken seriously on a public forum dealing with matters of History should not constantly stoop to the use of crude scatological terms, however much he might mistake them for some kind of 'clever' literary style. Consistently resorting to vulgarities impresses no one; it merely betrays a sadly adolescent mentality and a lack of courtesy to others. The English language is capable of much more interesting metaphors, adjectives and analogies; perhaps you should try it some time.

I've been told that you are comfortably endowed with money earned in the past by others; I'm sure that's very pleasant for you. Now maybe you could put your money where your mouth is and help some of the highly dedicated researchers who work hard every day in order to pay their bills, yet still devote all their free time and a great deal of their hard-earned money to furthering historical research. Think what a public hero you'd be... There are a number of individuals on this forum who very generously contribute a great deal to the rest of us who would probably jump at the chance to quit their jobs and be paid to do Ripper research around the clock.

Meanwhile, it's still a free world, and any individual who comes up with interesting material through their own hard work has a right to decide how, when and where they choose to make it public. No one else has the right to assume the role of petty dictator and tell them what to do.
What a miserable world it would be if things were otherwise!

But if you are busy creating your best of all possible worlds, why stop with 'Communistic Ripperology'??
Surely you can take the fantasy farther- why not force every citizen who has a scrap of information or a bright idea for ANYTHING to divulge it in public immediately?

Be honest, in your eyes the internet isn't a great tool for mutual cooperation, it's merely The Great Leveler where you can conveniently help yourself to the fruits of others people's hard work.

I sincerely doubt that your grand utopian vision of Communistic Ripperology can ever be a functional reality, even if Capitalism were suddenly abolished and each of us awoke to find ourselves living in a fantasy world where no one had to work for a living...
You see, some of actually prefer the real world.

- And AP, if your way is The Brave New World, then I'm proud to be archaic.