Pinching the "Canon" fuse

[lynn cates]

inadequate knife

Hello Observer. I feel confident that you are correct about "Jack's" intention to decapitate AC. I wonder, however, whether his failure was due to a lack of skill or an inadequate knife? If I remember, his knife was generally thought to be long, thin, and sharp. Usually, a decapitation is expedited by a heavier implement, such as a meat cleaver or small axe. The point being (Oh, dear! No pun intended!) that the blade of these is rather heavy and can separate the bony parts.

Just a suggestion.

The best.
LC

[Ben]

Hi Mike,

Good to see you here too!

There's really no contradiction implicit in Bond's observations. An individual can acquire "skill" at dispatching women with a knife through doing it on several occasions. He could simply have honed his abilities in that department through practice despite having no formal training as a medical practitioner, butcher or slaughterer.

The problem with prioritising Phillips's views over his contemporaries is that he was inclined to attribute the Chapman and Eddowes murders to different killers - a controversial position for obvious reasons, and it cannot help but influence our assessment of his views on Chapman.

Best regards,
Ben

[Observer]

Hi Lynn

I think the emphasis in Mikes argument revolves around the fact that the killer set out to acquire organs, if he wanted a head then why didn't he come prepared?

But forget the above, a long sharp knife would have sufficed to remove Annie Chapmans head, expierienced practicioners insert the blade between the vertebrae and severe the cartlidge, thus removing the head. I don't like to air this fact but hostage takers who commit this horrendous practise are experienced in such matters, they using nothing more than a knife to achieve this effect.

all the best

Observer

[lynn cates]

motivation

Hello Observer. I see what you mean. My remarks were merely intended to be general, based on possibilities. I was not addressing motivation.

If "Jack" intended to decapitate, he seemed unprepared. It is not clear whether the problem lay with the implement or his surgical skills.

The best.
LC

[perrymason]

So he knew in advance how to remove Annie Chapmans head? Because this is what he attempted. He wasn't very successfull was he?

Observer

Hi Observer,

In my opinion the nicked vertebrae, which occurs on murders after Annie Chapman too, is a direct result of the overkill technique that he used to kill. He cuts twice...as deep as he can, ensuring death. He would have to pull back at the last moment to avoid any nicking I would think...based on how deeply he cuts.

I think the decapitation locally was handled adequately by the Torso killer anyway, dont you? He could easily have taken Marys head off if that was Jack in that room, it was almost off anyway...so was Kates. I dont see decapitation as any kind of driver or objective myself....for Jack anyway.

All the best

[perrymason]

Hi Mike,

Good to see you here too!

There's really no contradiction implicit in Bond's observations. An individual can acquire "skill" at dispatching women with a knife through doing it on several occasions. He could simply have honed his abilities in that department through practice despite having no formal training as a medical practitioner, butcher or slaughterer.

The problem with prioritising Phillips's views over his contemporaries is that he was inclined to attribute the Chapman and Eddowes murders to different killers - a controversial position for obvious reasons, and it cannot help but influence our assessment of his views on Chapman.

Best regards,
Ben

Hi Ben,

On your last point I personally see reasons to entertain his suggestions about Kate, there are some troubling physical and circumstantial matters that are not adequately explained regardless of who killed her, and I see value in reserving judgment on a definite Jack assignation. Its the same reasons that I hold off on a Jack label for Liz. As for Phillips....he personally saw more Canonicals that any medic...his observations are therefore crucial information.

The thing about that argument is that Bond never hinted that the skills were acquired since the Canonicals....he suggested as I quoted that they were indeed present in the Canonical murders. A 180 degree turn from his opinions after inspecting Mary and the notes on the others.

My best as always mate

[Sam Flynn]

In my opinion the nicked vertebrae, which occurs on murders after Annie Chapman too, is a direct result of the overkill technique that he used to kill.

Why then, Mike, didn't Dr Bagster "Infallible Judgment" Phillips come out with that, instead of suggesting that a (deliberate) attempt had been made to separate the bones of the neck?

You really can't have it both ways. I'm just kindly pointing out an inconsistency that's at odds with your acceptance of the good doctor's opinon on other matters.

[Observer]

Hi Lynn

Indeed unprepared, acting in an off the cuff manner. Motivation, who knows? Only the killer I would suggest.

all the best

Observer

[perrymason]

Why then, Mike, didn't Dr Bagster "Infallible Judgment" Phillips come out with that, instead of suggesting that a (deliberate) attempt had been made to separate the bones of the neck?

You really can't have it both ways. I'm just kindly pointing out an inconsistency that's at odds with your acceptance of the good doctor's opinon on other matters.

All that might indicate Sam is that I was wrong assuming that decapitation was not an objective... if he was correct, or that he can possibly make an error..... just like Bond did describing his own opinions on the skills of the Ripper while examining Alice Mackenzie.

I never suggested anyone was beyond reproach Sam, I dont see how his and Wynne's comments on Mary Ann and Annie fall into the category of questionable though. Unless either or both is provably inept?

Best regards Sam

[Observer]

Hi Mike

Hi Observer,

In my opinion the nicked vertebrae, which occurs on murders after Annie Chapman too, is a direct result of the overkill technique that he used to kill. He cuts twice...as deep as he can, ensuring death. He would have to pull back at the last moment to avoid any nicking I would think...based on how deeply he cuts.

Bit more than overkill I would suggest. It's a safe bet that Annie Chapman was strangled to render her unconcious, she was then placed on her back, and her throat was deeply cut. To me, no matter how much overkill is employed in cutting her throat I doubt whether the initial cut would have extended all the way around her neck, the killer would have needed to lift her head to achieve this, and this suggests to me that he intended to severe her head.

all the best

Observer

[perrymason]

Hi Mike



Bit more than overkill I would suggest. It's a safe bet that Annie Chapman was strangled to render her unconcious, she was then placed on her back, and her throat was deeply cut. To me, no matter how much overkill is employed in cutting her throat I doubt whether the initial cut would have extended all the way around her neck, the killer would have needed to lift her head to achieve this, and this suggests to me that he intended to severe her head.

all the best

Observer

Well that theorizing would mean that The Torso Killer was much smarter than Jack the Ripper then, cause when he wanted to cut off arms, legs and heads, he did so in private. Not in public.

Jack couldnt figure out he'd need privacy and time to cut off a head? Even I would know that.

And then when he gets privacy in a room...he suddenly doesn't want to cut heads off anymore?

Cheers Observer

[Sam Flynn]

I never suggested anyone was beyond reproach Sam, I dont see how his and Wynne's comments on Mary Ann and Annie fall into the category of questionable though.

I don't think they're particularly questionable either, Mike - it's just your reliance on their non-existent comments for or against the "canonicity/motive" relating to Eddowes and Kelly that I find questionable.

[Observer]

Incapable of cutting off a head Mike, despite having two goes at it. And it would take approximately the same amount of time to severe a head than it would to extract a womb or a kidney, thats if you know what you're doing, which is doubtfull in this case.

all the best

Observer

[Mascara & Paranoia]

The victims' throats, Chapman's and Kelly's especially, do appear as though the killer cleaved them rather than slashed them. Though I don't think he intentionally set out to decapitate them, that is what he very nearly did.

[Observer]

Hi M and P

Sliced them all around, right the way around down to the vertbrae. The only other thing that I can think of apart from a desire to remove the head and this is highly speculative, is that the killer envisaged the head falling off as the police lifted the body, a grisly joke on his behalf.

all the best

Observer