Luck of the Irish?

[Guest]

Hi all,

This is really a simple question that is intended to probe peoples impressions of the probable involvement of Irish factions in some or all of the alleged Ripper events in the Fall of 1888.

We know that at least one Senior Investigator believed that the Irish man that headed the assassination plot against Lord Balfour the Irish Secretary, a man known as General Mullen, was also the notorious killer in Whitechapel. We know that a very profitable robbery of the Post Office the weekend of the Double Event was thought to be carried out by Fenians.....we have the upcoming Parnell Commission that winter...we have Fenian supporters like Tumblety, reported money launderer for the Fenians in London at the time,....we have many of the men that have tailed Fenians throughout the East End and all of London throughout the 1880's now assigned to the Ripper cases...many who built a career on capturing these types of anarchists, not the least of which is Abberline.

Im not suggesting that all things Irish lead to an Irish connection to Jack the Ripper, there were 10's of thousands of law abiding Irish people within the "kill zone"..... Im asking if its probable...that at that point in time... in those neighborhoods... that Fenian ventures or characters might interplay with whats become the Fall of Terror.

Since the plot to murder Balfour was foiled, requiring intercontinental governmental co-operation and Im sure months of investigations, its likely that one or more of the officers assigned to the Ripper cases was working on those Fenian investigations also. Almost certainly at the Senior level. Perhaps the team that Abberline puts together for interviews.... including Reid and Godley, 2 other men with prior Fenian arrests on their records,....and takes back to Millers Court Saturday morning to re-sieve ashes before a Pardon for Accomplices was issued from Warrens desk that afternoon....maybe thats the Anti Anarchist team as well.

Does anyone feel that the investigations of the Whitechapel Murders abutted investigations on Fenian anarchsists that Fall in 1888?

All replies are welcome.

Best regards all.

[smezenen]

Michael,
Another question to add to your list. Where the Whitechapel murders done with the purpose of keeping the investigators too busy to investigate the assaination plot against Lord Balfour, the post office robbery, or other crimes? for example; might the kelly murder be an attempt at occupying the police and prevent them from performing a propper investigation of the Post Office robery, or could the GSG have been meant to insigate a race riot that would further occupy the police while other crimes where commited.

[perrymason]

Michael,
Another question to add to your list. Where the Whitechapel murders done with the purpose of keeping the investigators too busy to investigate the assaination plot against Lord Balfour, the post office robbery, or other crimes? for example; might the kelly murder be an attempt at occupying the police and prevent them from performing a propper investigation of the Post Office robery, or could the GSG have been meant to insigate a race riot that would further occupy the police while other crimes where commited.

Its ideas like that that I am looking for here smezenen, but also for ideas on how perhaps the Fenians might have chosen a poor time to move about unobserved in the East End, or how they might have adapted to the murders.

Cheers smez

[Roy Corduroy]

Hi Mike & Smez,

This would be obtuse, Irish nationalists going about murdering unfortunates in hideous ways. The public at the time could scarcely have made a connection. But some of the heavy hitters in Ripper study have, I'm sure, looked into it because of the police angle.

Don't know much about it myself. But I recently read an entertaining book The Voyage of the Catalpa. Six members of the Irish Republican Brotherhood sent to prison in Freemantle, Australia escaped there in 1876 aboard an American ship financed by the Fenians.

Roy

[Limehouse]

Its ideas like that that I am looking for here smezenen, but also for ideas on how perhaps the Fenians might have chosen a poor time to move about unobserved in the East End, or how they might have adapted to the murders.

Cheers smez

I certainly think there is aan area of investigation into whether the Fenians may have capitalised on the distraction caused by the murders. However, having the opportunity to 'move about unobserved in the East End' may have been restricted because of the increased number of police on the streets who may have been more willing to stop and question men out late at night.

I do not think it is likely that the murders themselves were committed by Fenians or those with connections to divert attention away from a more thorough investigation into crimes such as the post office robbery because, if that was the case, cutting the women's throats would have been sufficient. The additional mutilations were not necessary to finish off the women. I feel strongly that the crimes were carried out by a person who needed to mutilate to achieve either a sexual urge or some sort of sadistic pleasure or both.

[perrymason]

Hi all,

Thanks for the posts thus far. I think this time in London in the Irish self rule movement is a critical one, and it seems to me that they had stepped up disruptive activities in the form of bombings and foiled bombings, and with Balfour's plot being in its final stages when it is foiled that Fall, I have to believe that there were ongoing investigations that were handled by men who also had Ripper assignments.

Ill bet that the events, (if not also staged by the Fenians), showed them a promising diversion of manpower and money scheme. I see a few characters in the Ripper tragedy that might make Irish self rule friends in their day to day lives, some senior investigative men with direct ties to catching Fenian anarchists in Whitechapel and its surrounds, like Anderson and Monro and Abberline, Williamson apparently catches the Balfour assassin in Europe ... and some suspects with direct ties to the Irish cause, like Dr T. As I mentioned earlier, we have a senior investigator the likes of Melville Macnaghten claiming that the Fenian who organized the Balfour Plot, a General Millen or Mullen, was Jack the Ripper.

I wonder if the City Detectives searching city streets when Kate was killed were on Irish or Ripper details, I wonder if there were some Irish ties that bind John Kelly and Kate Eddowes to Mary Kelly and either Daniel or Joe Barnett which might explain Kates choice of nomme de plume her last 24 hours and how being Fenian or even associated with some at that time in East London was dangerous business,....or if Tumblety was in London based on some money requirements of the Balfour Plot, .....

I think there must have been some spillover of intelligence and staffing between the 2 high profile investigations ongoing...I wonder about about some Fenian hands in the events perhaps as well.

Best regards all.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Mike,

Eddowes' using "Kelly" as a nom de plume can be simply explained by her not wanting to risk any further trouble by giving the police her real name ("I'll get a damn good hiding when I get 'ome"), and the simple fact that she was a de-facto "Mrs Kelly", on account of her relationship with John of the same name.

As to the more conspiratorial aspects of your suggestion - the sad fact of the matter is that the victims, and their boyfriends, were the lowest of the low both socially and personally. Any Irish blood they possessed (Mary Kelly's tales notwithstanding) was Nth-generation anyway, and Catherine Eddowes had no Irish blood at all from what I recall. A bunch of drunken hobos, scratching a living by hawking fruit and embarking on fruitless hopping expeditions, is what we're dealing with here. I can't imagine a less likely group of people to have been involved in political activities of any kind - least of all with terrorism.

[perrymason]

Hi Mike,

Eddowes' using "Kelly" as a nom de plume can be simply explained by her not wanting to risk any further trouble by giving the police her real name ("I'll get a damn good hiding when I get 'ome"), and the simple fact that she was a de-facto "Mrs Kelly", on account of her relationship with John of the same name.

As to the more conspiratorial aspects of your suggestion - the sad fact of the matter is that the victims, and their boyfriends, were the lowest of the low both socially and personally. Any Irish blood they possessed (Mary Kelly's tales notwithstanding) was Nth-generation anyway, and Catherine Eddowes had no Irish blood at all from what I recall. A bunch of drunken hobos, scratching a living by hawking fruit and embarking on fruitless hopping expeditions, is what we're dealing with here. I can't imagine a less likely group of people to have been involved in political activities of any kind - least of all with terrorism.

They may not have any hands on roles to play at all Sam, but the Irish self rule community within the square mile that "Jack" killed in were active at the same time as the slayings....and the senior investigators had experience with Fenians more than any other segment of the criminal population.

The Fenians were at work in the same area at the same time, and there were a few senior based theories about the extent of the role they might have played during that time....(see Macnaghten).

Cheers Sam

[Sam Flynn]

The Fenians were at work in the same area at the same time

I don't recall that Spitalfields, Berner Street or Mitre Square were particularly associated with Fenianism.

[perrymason]

I don't recall that Spitalfields, Berner Street or Mitre Square were particularly associated with Fenianism.

Mitre Square, stored dynamite and Fenians do have an association, If I recall Nats comments correctly regarding that location.

The Fenians that did the "ground work" were surely in that area at that time Sam. I believe Abberlines reputation as a Fenian buster was based on his arrests in that neck of the woods....its where he gained the street savvy that led to his being lent back to Whitechapel for the Ripper crimes.

Cheers SF

[Sam Flynn]

The Fenians that did the "ground work" were surely in that area at that time Sam.

They were active in more places than just Spitalfields. Indeed, the so-called "Fenian Barracks" (a bit of a misnomer, but there it is) was much further East, in Bromley-by-Bow.

As I said earlier, though, Eddowes, Kelly (Mary/John) and Joe Barnett were debauched and downtrodden - the lowest of the low, with only the vaguest links to Ireland. I can't imagine that they'd have been involved in Fenianism - or, if they were, there's precious little chance that they'd have been suspected of it unless they were known activists. Sadly, the only "activity" they were used to was scratching around for the odd job and getting hammered on gin.

[perrymason]

Hi Gareth,

Im not so sold on the idea that any of the key players in any Canonical that were Irish had any direct connection to Fenian activities that were ongoing in that area at that time....but I am willing to guess that there were some that knew of such men and women. There are Irish connections abounding in these tales, and less than a sqaure mile of streets and pubs were talking about. Im sure law abiding Irish knew other Irish in the area,...even the anarchist ones.

The whole area was a bunch of cliques and international nests, same congregated with same.

Im willing to bet that a connection of that type existed in the Kelly murder....it might explain the interest of Members of Parliament, the Royal Irish Constabulary and a Senior Post Office official...(remember, that robbery was thought to be a Fenian run sting)....in her room the week following her murder.

I think it may have played a role in the Pardon Issuance myself. If they suspected she had Fenian ties, and they might be behind hers, or some or all of the recent murders, if accurate... then that would inevitably lead to more than one man being guilty of the crimes.

Cheers Sam