Cry Murder!

[Sam Flynn]

...when juxtaposed with what is known about her initial body position at the commencement of the attack in relation to her attacker,... she was facing away from the room, towards the wall, on her right side, on the beds right side....undressed and either on or just under a sheet.

Mike, I'll speak up for other people's benefit, and possibly yours:

We don't know ANY of that!!!

[perrymason]

Out of interest, whose medical opinion was that?

It bears repeating that the arms AND forearms, both left and right, sustained these jagged wounds. How could her killer have been in a position to have inflicted such wounds whilst simultaneously trying to cut her throat? How could he have cut BOTH arms AND forearms under a "defensive" scenario, period? I might imagine the NEAREST forearm to the killer copping a few blows, but not the arm as well... and certainly not the arm and forearm furthest away from the killer.

There was no reported extravasation in the wounds of the arms/forearms, and the wounds are apparently "clean", with no leeching of blood onto the skin either side of the wounds. How could that happen if the circulation was still functional? One would expect some seepage to be apparent, as well as later "smearing" if the killer manipulated her arms after death - but we see none at all on the photograph. (And, note, that's on the NEAREST arm - the one that would have copped the defensive wounds, if any were indeed inflicted, and which one might have expected to have shown signs of oozing if the circulation had still been viable at that time.)

Finally, the arm/forearm wounds are described as jagged, not linear, as one might expect from a direct swipe from the flailing of a razor-sharp knife.

Hi Sam,

Youve drawn a conclusion I havent.....that the attack started with him trying to slit her throat. Who says? All we know is he slashed at her in the upper right part of the bed, and that after she was compliant and her throat slit, he moved her to the middle of the bed. In fact the physical evidence suggests she struggled, and since there are wounds on her arms, jagged or not, they were likely used by her in some fashion to ward off blows. She could even have flailed her arms if he did manage to cut her throat first, and if he kept slashing anyway. And by the state of her face, and the fact that we know he was slashing at her when she is on the beds right side at the attack commencement, who says that some slashes didnt contact her face rather than her neck? Maybe he slashed at her face first. If this is done after everyone immediately local is sleeping again, after 3:45am.....then he can get away with some sounds.

The types of wounds on her face state empirically that there were cuts made on Mary that had varied random decent paths and from multiple angles,....they are referred to as slashes. They are not exacting cuts, they are ones that are consistent with anger directed towards the victim, based on the ferocity and lack of controlled execution.

Where do you see a solely emotional angry cut on Annie?

Its clear Mary was attacked on her own bed on its right side, and the circumstantial evidence suggests that the killer was in the room with her when she lay like that...facing away from him.

Why isnt she lying sprawled across the bed? Why would she be on the right side of the bed? A habit from when Joe slept beside her 8 nights earlier, or a position that allows a party to get on the bed with her on the left side that night?

Dont know.

Best regards Sam.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Sam,

Youve drawn a conclusion I havent.....that the attack started with him trying to slit her throat.

That's not the conclusion that's of relevance here. My main point was that the wounds on her arms and forearms were very unlikely to have been defensive ones.

Maybe he slashed at her face first.

No. Because those wounds, like the ones to her arms and forearms, were almost certainly not inflicted whilst the circulation was viable - otherwise the blood streaming down her face would have been considerable, noticeable to the doctors and quite possibly visible on the photograph more than 120 years later.

As M&P has alluded to, anything other than a swift dispatch would have resulted in much flailing and screaming. That was almost certainly not the case at Miller's Court - and, apart from a minor nick to Kelly's left thumb and a few abrasions on the back of her hand, there is little evidence of any struggle at all.

[perrymason]

Sam,

Its abundantly clear by the evidence that we do not know that Mary's throat was "efficiently" or swiftly cut to cause death. The evidence starts with pointing out that this is the only victim which forced the killer to cut her from her left side....even Bond points this out.

It was far from business as normal when reviewing the circumstances and the initial phase of the attack on her body on the bed. That means there is no evidence that Mary had her throat cut while she was incapable of resistance of some kind, but there is such evidence with 3 of the Canonicals.

The attack started in that right corner, he does cut her throat there, but thats all there is....theres no evidence that he cut her throat before her face. Im not saying her created that entire face at that moment, he may have cut her face more when he moved her to the middle of the bed. The man was obviously slashing wildly at her face at at least one point during that night....maybe he did it a few times.

From Bond:

"The bed clothing at the right corner was saturated with blood, & on the floor beneath was a pool of blood covering about 2 feet square. The wall by the right side of the bed & in a line with the neck was marked by blood which had struck it in a number of separate splashes."


Best regards Sam.

[Sam Flynn]

Sam,

Its abundantly clear by the evidence that we do not know that Mary's throat was "efficiently" or swiftly cut to cause death.

There's categorically no evidence to support the view that he didn't cut her throat as efficiently as possible, under the circumstances.

That means there is no evidence that Mary had her throat cut while she was incapable of resistance of some kind, but there is such evidence with 3 of the Canonicals.

How do we know that Eddowes didn't struggle? Or Chapman, or Nichols (on whose death we have scarcely any info at all)?

Again, where is the evidence that Kelly resisted? A scream (or two, or three - statements vary, even within witnesses) a nick on one thumb, and a few cuts to the back of the hand... that's it. It's hardly Custer's Last Stand.

The man was obviously slashing wildly at her face at at least one point during that night....maybe he did it a few times.

But not whilst her heart was still pumping.

From Bond:

"The bed clothing at the right corner was saturated with blood, & on the floor beneath was a pool of blood covering about 2 feet square. The wall by the right side of the bed & in a line with the neck was marked by blood which had struck it in a number of separate splashes."

Indeed, Mike. That'd be down to the blood jetting from the right carotid artery, just after it had been cut, and the gush of blood from both sides of her neck saturating the mattress, after the initial death-blow had been dealt.

[perrymason]

1. There's categorically no evidence to support the view that he didn't cut her throat as efficiently as possible, under the circumstances.How do we know that Eddowes didn't struggle? Or Chapman, or Nichols (on whose death we have scarcely any info at all)?

2. Again, where is the evidence that Kelly resisted? A scream (or two, or three - statements vary, even within witnesses) a nick on one thumb, and a few cuts to the back of the hand... that's it. It's hardly Custer's Last Stand.But not whilst her heart was still pumping.Indeed, Mike. That'd be down to the blood jetting from the right carotid artery, just after it had been cut, and the gush of blood from both sides of her neck saturating the mattress, after the initial death-blow had been dealt.

Hi again Sam,

On Point !, how we know that not one of them fought the throat cut is by the physical evidence at the crime scenes. They were lying down for one, their clothing was not suggestive of struggle, just of being cut or moved above their midsections, theres no evidence the arterial spray went all over the site by their movement,... by the opinions of the medical professionals only Liz Strides death may have taken place while she was at least partially upright and likely struggling. The act was described as taking 2 seconds to complete....from scarf to slice and drop.

Virtually every sound assessment of the condition of the women you mentioned at the time of their throat cut was semi or fully unconscious, lying down. On wet dirty cobblestones.

On Point 2, I dont think you mean to claim that every cut made on Mary Kelly was made after the throat cut....but if you do, then we'll never agree, so Its not worth carrying on. The artery sprayed on the wall, the blood pooled on and under the bed. She was leaking from many places that night Sam, not just a single throat cut.

Im not a medical man, but to me it would be unreasonable to suggest that while slashing at her face and throat only the cut that severs her arteries would bleed at all.

By the crime scene evidence, he could have slashed at her, sliced her throat initially catching an artery, moved her to the middle of the bed and slashed her face...in a matter of seconds, far sooner than she would bleed out to an unconscious state, and well before other wounds made at the same roughly time would be bloodless.

I dont think either of us will budge, so Ill shake your hand and agree to disagree, and take my father and mother out for a steak now.

All the best Sam....Happy Pappy Day to ya.

[Sam Flynn]

The artery sprayed on the wall, the blood pooled on and under the bed. She was leaking from many places that night Sam, not just a single throat cut.

The amount of blood that would gush from a deeply severed carotid artery would be more than ample to spray the wall, drench the mattress AND pool on the floor, Mike.

Remember where that pool of blood was - under the top right hand corner of the bed... precisely where her severed neck would have rested after he'd cut it.

Im not a medical man, but to me it would be unreasonable to suggest that while slashing at her face and throat only the cut that severs her arteries would bleed at all.

The point is that blood would have flowed into (and out of) her other wounds if the circulation was still viable, otherwise we're just looking at an ooze that gets slower and slower until the circulation stops.

By the crime scene evidence, he could have slashed at her, sliced her throat initially catching an artery, moved her to the middle of the bed and slashed her face...in a matter of seconds

There's absolutely no evidence for that. In fact, the evidence contradicts the possibility.

I dont think either of us will budge, so Ill shake your hand and agree to disagree, and take my father and mother out for a steak now.

When you do, ask them to show you the steak before they cook it... ask them to make a few cuts into it... and then see if you get any arterial spurt, or whether any significant amounts of blood soaks into the cuts, or flows onto the surface of the meat. You might learn a useful lesson that way. If not... enjoy the meal anyhow

[perrymason]

I brought food in instead....and my point was that it would take the single artery severance of Liz Stride to bleed out over minutes. Any subsequent cut that was made while some blood pressure remained would also bleed.

We dont know that Mary was cut once in the throat, in fact she may well have been cut a few times. And we dont know how soon before, after, or whether it was during the facial slashes attack. Or whether he slashed her face at intervals for the entire time in the room for that matter.

The blood evidence says he attacked her in that upper right portion of the bed, it doesnt say its the only place he cuts her, nor that he cuts her throat before he cuts her elsewhere. It doesnt say that he hits the artery first slash. It says he slashed at her there, and during that encounter at some point he cuts her throat.

He could have stuffed a pillow over her face with the knife under it scathing her face by his moving his hand about....and when the pillow was off her face, cut her throat. All thats missing is at least muffled noise for that to be a possibility....and if she is killed when all are back to sleep, after the 3:45 cry....who would hear it?

Cheers Sam

[Sam Flynn]

The blood evidence says he attacked her in that upper right portion of the bed, it doesnt say its the only place he cuts her, nor that he cuts her throat before he cuts her elsewhere. It doesnt say that he hits the artery first slash. It says he slashed at her there, and during that encounter at some point he cuts her throat.

The evidence actually shows that a huge amount of blood was shed from the neck, and that the only other wounds that might have been inflicted whilst the circulation was still viable were a SMALL cut on Kelly's right thumb, and some abrasions to the back of her right hand. (Even those could conceivably have been inflicted whilst the blood was gushing out from the savage wounds in her neck, and a residuum of blood pressure remained.) None of the other wounds were thus described, and this is partly supported by the photographic evidence which - even though it's ancient and grainy - shows no sign of collateral blood spillage alongside the (NB: jagged!) wounds inflicted on her arms, nor accompanying the manic slashing that so savagely scored her features.

All thats missing is at least muffled noise for that to be a possibility....and if she is killed when all are back to sleep, after the 3:45 cry....who would hear it?

Don't tell me you've given up on your all-seeing and all-hearing witnesses, Mike?

[perrymason]

Don't tell me you've given up on your all-seeing and all-hearing witnesses, Mike?

Not when they are awake and listening for more sounds Sam.

All the best Mr Flynn