Cry Murder!

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Everytime i talk about Prater, i have visions of a middle aged hag, but that account describes her as Young, and her account of talking to McCarthy on her way home in the early hours of the 9th, also has her using the term 'waiting for my young man'.
So how old exactly was Elizabeth Prater , resident of millers court in 1888?
Regards Richard.

[Sam Flynn]

As it is on record that the discription of the cry was similar to awakening from a bad dream, why is not impossible that it was just that?

It's not impossible, Rich, but I struggle to understand why a scream "as if waking from a nightmare" sounds any different from a scream "as if fully awake" - or "as if falling off a cliff", "as if about to be run over by a train", etc etc, for that matter. A scream is a scream - and any suggestion from an effectively "blind" witness as to what preceded it has to count as, if not exaggeration and sensationalism, then pure supposition at least. Besides, in my experience, one awakens from a nightmare with an "Uhhh!", not a scream.

What makes this affair all the more suspicious is that Prater was some distance away from Kelly when she heard it (if she really heard it), and Sarah Lewis (if indeed she really heard it), just across the court, described it differently. It may be that only one witness really heard something (or made it up - Lewis was evidently of the gossipy type also) and that the other was just jumping on the bandwagon - "Oh, I heard it too!".

[Sam Flynn]

So how old exactly was Elizabeth Prater , resident of millers court in 1888?

Chris Scott's census research in his splendid JTR: A Cast of Thousands would make Elizabeth Prater 45 years old in 1888.

[Ben]

"a garrulous young woman who, with some dramatic force, imitated by voice and action a sort of nightmare cry of "Oh! murder!"

- From the Daily News, as reproduced by Gareth.

Anyone else find the above description to be heavily at odds with Prater's claim, published in most other press accounts, to have heard only a "faint" or "suppressed" emanation?

Best regards,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

On a side note, ‘praten’ is common Dutch for ‘to talk’ and a ‘prater’ is someone who talks or likes to talk. Funny to discover that yet another English word is virtually the same in Dutch. I didn’t even know that ‘prate’ and ‘prater’ existed in English.

Indeed they do, Frank - although these days one is more likely to use the derivatives "prattle" and "prattler". I wonder whether these words share a common ancestry with the German "prahlen", meaning to "boast", "bluster" or "show off".

[Sam Flynn]

"a garrulous young woman who, with some dramatic force, imitated by voice and action a sort of nightmare cry of "Oh! murder!"

- From the Daily News, as reproduced by Gareth.

Anyone else find the above description to be heavily at odds with Prater's claim, published in most other press accounts, to have heard only a "faint" or "suppressed" emanation?

Thing is, Ben, Prater changes her mind between her police statement and the inquest - at least in terms of the number of screams she claims to have heard. Another reason to treat her testimony with suspicion.

For info, she seems only to volunteer the description of the volume of the scream (singular, by now) when prompted by a question at the inquest. This was after she'd imparted the information referred to in my snippet from the Daily News.

[Ben]

Hi Gareth,

This was after she'd imparted the information referred to in my snippet from the Daily News

...Which would have created quite an amusing incident if, after delivering a "dramatic" and "forceful" imitation of Kelly's murder cry, complete with actions, she then responded to the question "How loud was the cry?",with "Oh, it was only faint and suppressed".

All the best,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

...Which would have created quite an amusing incident if, after delivering a "dramatic" and "forceful" imitation of Kelly's murder cry, complete with actions, she then responded to the question "How loud was the cry?",with "Oh, it was only faint and suppressed".

Back-pedalling, because she was put on the spot? I reckon so. If she'd said it was loud, the next question might have been, "Why didn't you do anything about it, then?". Her "I often hear such cries" statement might have been another bit of improvised arse-covering, when seen in that context.

[Ben]

Back-pedalling, because she was put on the spot? I reckon so. If she'd said it was loud, the next question might have been, "Why didn't you do anything about it, then?".

Possibly, Gareth, although Sarah Lewis did specify "loud" without then being asked why she took no further action. There's no evidence that she engaged in any amateur dramatics when giving her evidence, however.

Best regards,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

Possibly, Gareth, although Sarah Lewis did specify "loud" without then being asked why she took no further action.

Prater gave her testimony first, so she wouldn't have known about that - which is why I get the impression that she was caught out in a lie.

When Lewis's turn came, she described the (single) scream as "loud", but immediately followed it up with "I took no notice of it", thus obviating any need for that question. In so doing, she at least remained consistent with her police statement, in which she said that she didn't bother looking out of the window after having heard the scream.

There's no evidence that she engaged in any amateur dramatics when giving her evidence, however.

Lewis makes up for it elsewhere, though, with her insistence on letting the world know about her "Bethnal Green Botherer". The way Lewis goes on about it, one could swear that she was at the trial of the BGB himself, rather than the inquest of the latest WM victim!

[FrankO]

Hi Gareth,

I know it's not an appropriate thread for this (maybe we should create one?), but a glance on Google revealed that 'prattle' probably has its ancestry in the Middle Low German ‘pratelen’. I think ‘prattle’ may be a contraction of ‘prate’ and ‘rattle’. In Dutch ‘pratelen’ exists, although it’s not a common word anymore. It seems a contraction of ‘praten’ and ‘ratelen’ (= to rattle) and means something like ‘to talk incessantly’.

Cheers,
Frank

[Ben]

I don't think Prater invented the "Oh murder" cry, though, even if she did over-egg the pudding when recounting of the episode. She wouldn't have had much to fear from being asked why she didn't take action, since any questioning along those lines could easily be countered with "I was a single woman, alone, and thus too scared to investigate". She had, after all, barricaded her door.

All the best,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

I don't think Prater invented the "Oh murder" cry, though

Given that Prater (eventually) describes the scream as faint, and that Prater herself was on the floor above Kelly, I can't believe that she could have heard any specific words. "Mnn! Mnn-Mnnn!", perhaps - with Lewis providing the missing vowels and consonants. That assumes that there really was anything to hear, of course. I can't help observing that Lewis comes across as more of a "prater" than Prater herself, and - scream or not - I'm inclined to treat both women's stories with caution.

[Ben]

Given that Prater (eventually) describes the scream as faint, and that Prater herself was on the floor above Kelly

Probably because it sounded faint to her, given her location. A cry that would seem loud to someone living directly opposite (with windows seperated by a scant few feet), as Lewis was, would probably sound "faint" to someone living on the floor above.

I'm inclined to agree with your observation re the Bethnal Botherer, though. The emphasis given to this high-hatted man with a shiny black bag may have obfuscated potentially more significant aspects of her account.

All the best,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

Probably because it sounded faint to her, given her location. A cry that would seem loud to someone living directly opposite (with windows seperated by a scant few feet), as Lewis was, would probably sound "faint" to someone living on the floor above.

I wouldn't dispute that, Ben - indeed, I agree completely. My point was simply that Prater could not have heard the words distinctly from her vantage point, and that what was to her a diffuse, muffled noise almost certainly would have needed the details filled in by Lewis.