Prove it

[Fisherman]

Sam Flynn directs us to the text:

"The secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had, no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock... he was seen... being chased by another man along Fairclough Street".

I´ve seen this before, Sam - but I´ve forgotten it´s origins. Could you enlighten me?
It is a very interesting piece, anyhow. The timing is spot on, and we know that Schwartz lived at 22 Ellen Street, which was quite close to Back Church Lane. So, if we assume that Schwarts took right on Fairclough, and then left on Back Church Lane, it all tallies very well.
But what about the railway arch? Where was that situated? The railway would have passed west and south of the crossing of Back Church Lane and Ellen Street, would it not?
At any rate, I think your guess that this piece may be connected to the interruption scenario makes eminent sense. Good suggestion! Is there any follow-up on a Stride thread?

The best,
Fisherman

[robhouse]

I have posted this before... might as well post it again...

The “canonic five” murders, Nichols, Chapman, Stride, Eddowes, and Kelly, are remarkably consistent in terms of the wound characteristics, if we assume a general escalation of mutilation. Despite this, some researchers argue that Liz Stride and Mary Kelly may not have been victims of the Ripper. These arguments are very weak in my opinion.

The argument against Stride’s inclusion as a Ripper victim is that she was not mutilated, but this is very simply explained by the fact that Stride’s murder was interrupted by Israel Schwartz. The other main argument against Stride’s inclusion is that the clumsy approach of the broad shouldered man seen by Schwartz is inconsistent with the Ripper’s swift and silent modus operandi. But we have already discussed these objections, and I will not go over it again.

The theory that Mary Kelly was not a Ripper victim is more recent, but it is an even less supportable one. The gist of the argument is that Kelly’s murder was different in that it took place indoors, and the mutilations were much more extensive. This begs the obvious explanation, and I scarcely feel the need to go into this. Suffice to say that the Ripper did not choose the location of the murders, but instead was taken to spots that were habitually used by the prostitutes. Kelly was the only one of the victims who actually had a private room where she could take clients. Therefore the location of the crime scene has nothing to do with the Ripper or his modus operandi.
The fact that Kelly’s mutilations were more extensive than those of the other victims is explained by the simple fact that the killer had a long, uninterrupted period indoors in which he could perform more extensive mutilation.

But in an attempt to beat a dead horse, I will take a brief time-out from our narrative to discuss similarities in the wounds of the canonic victims. A detailed analysis of the post mortem report on Kelly’s wounds and mutilation clearly shows they were consistent with the rest of the murders. The murder is also consistent in terms of victimology, body positioning, and the time and location of the murder.

A comparison of the wounds shows remarkable consistency (quotations are taken from the inquests/post-mortems):

Body position:

All the canonic five victims, except Elizabeth Stride, were found on their back, head turned to side, with the legs open, bent up at knees. All except Eddowes have a hand across the torso. As the head of Scotland Yard’s Homicide Prevention Unit Laura Richards said on the TV documentary Jack The Ripper - The First Serial Killer, “The body has been displayed, intentionally, and left in that way for a purpose. He’s interested in people’s reaction, and the impact of what he’s done.”

Kelly: “left forearm flexed at a right angle and lying across the abdomen”
Chapman: “left arm was placed across the left breast”
Stride: “The right arm was over the belly”

Kelly: “The legs were wide apart, the left thigh at right angles to the trunk and the right forming an obtuse angle with the pubes.”
Eddowes: “Right leg bent at the thigh and knee.”
Chapman: “The legs were drawn up, the feet resting on the ground, and the knees turned outwards”
Stride: “The legs were drawn up with the feet close to the wall.”

Disarrangement of Clothes:

Most of the canonic victims, including Martha Tabram, were found with their clothes pulled up, exposing the abdomen and groin. This is a common feature of serial murder, as noted in Ressler et al, “Many victim’s bodies are left in what might be termed sexual disarray.” For example, Martha Tabram was lying on her back in what PC. Barrett thought was a position for sexual intercourse, despite the fact that Dr. Killeen did not seem to think that intercourse had recently taken place. Note that also, in the case of Tabram and Eddowes, the upper portion of the dress is torn away, probably to expose the breasts.

Tabram: “The victim's clothes were thrown upwards, completely disarranged, and the bosom of the dress was torn away.” “The woman's clothes were thrown up so as to expose the lower part of the body”
Nichols: “The clothes were up to her groins.”
Chapman: “Deceased's legs were drawn up, and the clothing was above the knees.”
Eddowes: “Her clothes were thrown up.” “The upper part of the dress had been torn open.”
Kelly: “The body was lying naked in the middle of the bed.” “The legs were wide apart”

Comparison of Throat cuts:
All of the victims except for Mary Kelly had their throats cut from left to right, and the resultant cause of death was severence of left cartoid artery. In the case of Kelly, the killer may have attacked from the front, and it was difficult to determine the direction of the throat cuts, but the cause of death was determined to be severence of right cartoid artery. Kelly, Eddowes and Chapman had notches cut into in the vertibrae of the spine at the neck.

Kelly: throat cut “down to the vertebrae, the fifth and sixth being deeply notched”
Eddowes: “the knife marking intervertebral cartilages”
Chapman: “There were two distinct clean cuts on the left side of the spine”
Nichols: “That incision completely severed all the tissues down to the vertebrae.”

Comparison of abdominal mutilation Kelly, Eddowes, Chapman:

In all cases, with the exception of Polly Nichols, the abdomen is entirely “laid open,” the intestines are removed and placed by the side of the body, and organs are removed (sometimes taken, sometime not), with a focus on the cervix, kidneys, liver, & uturus. In the case of Mary Kelly, there are obviously more extensive mutilations (Skin removed, breasts removed etc). Note that different organs are taken from each victim: Kelly (heart), Eddowes (kidney), Chapman (uturus). In all cases the uterus is removed from the abdomen.

Note: Nichols does not have the same extent of Abdominal mutilation, although the abdomen is clearly targeted. The wounds seem almost more stab-like in nature, which is similar to Tabram. No organs were removed.

Kelly: “The whole of the surface of the abdomen and thighs was removed”
Eddowes: “We examined the abdomen. The front walls were laid open from the breast bones to the pubes”
Chapman: “The abdomen had been entirely laid open:”

Kelly: “the intestines by the right side”
Eddowes: “The intestines were drawn out to a large extent and placed over the right shoulder”
Chapman: “the intestines, severed from their mesenteric attachments, had been lifted out of the body and placed on the shoulder of the corpse”

Kelly: “uterus and kidneys with one breast under the head” “heart absent.” “the liver between the feet”
Eddowes: “kidney carefully taken out and removed.” “uterus was cut through. . The womb was cut through horizontally, leaving a stump of three quarters of an inch. The rest of the womb had been taken away with some of the ligaments. The vagina and cervix of the womb was uninjured.”
Chapman: “uterus and its appendages with the upper portion of the vagina and the posterior two thirds of the bladder, had been entirely removed. No trace of these parts could be found and the incisions were cleanly cut, avoiding the rectum, and dividing the vagina low enough to avoid injury to the cervix uteri.”

Comparison of facial mutilation Kelly and Eddowes:

The facial mutilation began with Eddowes, and may be seen as an elaboration of the mutilations performed by the Ripper.

Kelly: “The face was gashed in all directions, the nose, cheeks, eyebrows, and ears being partly removed.”
Eddowes: “The face was very much mutilated.” “tip of the nose was quite detached” Cuts to eyelids, nose, upper lip divided, flaps cut in both cheeks.

In summary, the overall picture is one of escalating mutilation. There are some differences clearly, but overall there is a lot of consistency. The throat wounds are very similar, and the abdominal mutilation is fairly consistent (in general signature and intent) - the sexual organs are targeted and largely the entire abdomen is fair game. Body positioning is consistent.

[Sam Flynn]

Seems Mary is the only victim with defensive wounds, so that may be part of the proof. This is the murder of a young healthy woman who is not homeless.

Not quite - it's the murder of a woman who put up a fight, Mike. "Putting up a fight" - if indeed she did put up much of a fight - is up to the victim, and not the murderer. One can't use variables that weren't of the killer's making to identify, or rule out, the killer himself.

Likewise - and similar to her age - the fact that Kelly wasn't "homeless" is down to her circumstances, and not the killer's. Again, we can't use such a variable to identify, or rule out, the murderer.

Now, having her body cut open and organs cut out was definitely within the gift of the killer, and it's these attributes that link her to the previous murders, and indicate that she was likely killed by the same person.

[EricCarter]

What physical evidence links all 5 of these killings to one killer?

Medical evidence links four of the victims to one killer.[/QUOTE]

Thats not accurate Jon, the opinions of some attedning physicians as to the probable killer do...not the wounds themselves. By medical evidence, Polly and Annie can be easily grouped, and Kate can be a strong consideration if not a likely 3rd.

The medical evidence says that Polly, Annie and Kate were not resisting lying on the ground face up when their throats are cut. It also suggests that the next action is a cut into the midsection. It also suggests that Liz Stride had a single artery severed completely and she may have been cut while falling and being choked. It also says that Mary was attacked with a knife, so is conscious and resisting before the throat is cut but while the killer is using a knife.

Cheers Jon.[/QUOTE]

The medical evidence also states that Stride had a neckerchief on and was pulled very tight and the edge was frayed as if cut by a knife. So, the killer grabs the neckerchief instead of throttling as in the other cases still does the same thing. In this case though it aids in lowering her to the ground. He then cuts the throat as in the others, makes the first cut, then along comes Diemschutz and he has to get out of there with his ritual incomplete, which might attribute to the frenzied attack on Eddowes. As for Kelly she may have tried to resist, it was indoors and she was on the bed, he had to change his attack plan somewhat. It was the nature of the attacks and the dispatch of the victims that led to most if not all of the officials at the time to say that all was the work of one man and that it was the same man.

[Robert]

Hi Michael

If we take what you're saying to its logical conclusion, then Jack killed only two (can't have Tabram - killed indoors and no evisceration; can't have Nichols - no evisceration ; can't have Kelly - killed indoors and too much violence ; can't have Stride - no mutilation).

By the same token, the murders of Nichols, Stride, Tabram and Kelly are all different from each other.

Therefore at least five different men decided to take up murder in the same small area of London in the same three month period.

Was it something in the water?

I don't see anything that "proves" that the C5 weren't killed by 5 different murderers. There are enough commonalities though that lead me to think that they all were slain by the same person.

Although I differ in my conclusions I fully agree with your perceptions Stan. Nice to have you weigh in.

Best regards mate

What physical evidence links all 5 of these killings to one killer?[/QUOTE]

Medical evidence links four of the victims to one killer.[/QUOTE]

Thats not accurate Jon, the opinions of some attedning physicians as to the probable killer do...not the wounds themselves. By medical evidence, Polly and Annie can be easily grouped, and Kate can be a strong consideration if not a likely 3rd.

The medical evidence says that Polly, Annie and Kate were not resisting lying on the ground face up when their throats are cut. It also suggests that the next action is a cut into the midsection. It also suggests that Liz Stride had a single artery severed completely and she may have been cut while falling and being choked. It also says that Mary was attacked with a knife, so is conscious and resisting before the throat is cut but while the killer is using a knife.

Cheers Jon.

Yes Gareth, we don't hear of a suspicious man going around asking women their age.

Also, the younger prostitutes would have had higher earnings than the older ones, and would have been less desperate to turn out at all hours of the night looking for custom - though as a counterbalance it could be argued that they would have been more likely to have kids to feed.

Hi Robert,

To address the multiple posts from you and Sam on the above point, age may certainly be a disqulaifying characteristic as well as a private room might be....if the "Ripper" killed homeless, older women as his preference.

Seems Mary is the only victim with defensive wounds, so that may be part of the proof. This is the murder of a young healthy woman who is not homeless.

Best regards

[Mr.Hyde]

Should have read-ALL CVs,etc.not most.

[Mr.Hyde]

What you will all ultimately discover is that all 5 CVs evolved from a fairly simple blackmail.Probably went back a few years.Escalated when JTR finally snapped.
Most CVs had friends,even relatives,in common.

[Sam Flynn]

In the case of Stride, I think that he was interrupted by the arrival of Diemschutz.

On which point, see this. It's on a Stride thread - where any response to it should belong - but nobody seems to have picked up on it yet.

I return you to this thread

[sdreid]

I don't see anything that "proves" that the C5 weren't killed by 5 different murderers. There are enough commonalities though that lead me to think that they all were slain by the same person.

[EricCarter]

Hello all,

I know for myself I take a lot of abuse here for suggesting since my arrival here a few years back that the Canonical Group is a flawed and baseless premise by which to construct a Ripper search.

I feel that at the very least 1 woman can be excluded summarily based on the fact that the death is unlike a Ripper murder and mutilation....the combination of the 2 is what defines his activities. Its cutting into people he kills that separates these crimes from any average knife murder,....like 2 of three throat cutting deaths seem to be on the "Double" Event night.

I also believe that the last murder has factors which supersede some similarities in the mutilation phase...in that the victim was half the age of priors, likely sleeping when she meets her killer in her own bed and room, and the only organ taken from both victim number 2 and 4 is left behind.

A recent really rude remark made my way prompted this post, if you want the source see the general victims discussion thread, but the gist of the post directed at me suggested I should provide proof that they should be excluded or I should stop saying it.

The poster forgot that these are all officially unsolved murders.

But, in case you agree.....Here's the opportunity for any and all who feel they can make a legitimate case with supporting evidence for a single killer of just these 5 women, and all of the 5 women.

As most of us know, Legal Guilt is assigned based on evidence, and suggested links to a single killer would be based on the physical evidence or behaviors.

My stance.... and that of many others including one of the most respected names in this field, is that I'd be happy to consider any victim that seems to fit with Polly and Annies murder style and content. But I can only see 2 or perhaps 3 of 5 that meet that criteria.

Prove me wrong.

What physical evidence links all 5 of these killings to one killer?

Id ask that anyone with a grudge towards me send me a message rather than post it here..no-one cares to read that kind of thing anyway.

Best regards all.

There is medical evidence that links them. You have the medical examiners of the time stating that it seemed to be the same hand in all of the killings.

As far as the style of the killings goes, anyone that has done any serious study of serial killers can tell you as the killer matures as a killer the style changes. Also the setting and circumstances must be taken into consideration as well.

In the case of Stride, I think that he was interrupted by the arrival of Diemschutz.

In Kelly's case he had all the time in the world to do as he pleased and did.

Tabram's shows a killer still uncertain but has the ear marks of what follows.

As far as weapons goes and the number of them serial killers use different methods all the time. The Zodiac shot some of his victims and stabbed others and made threats to use explosives.

You can't just pick one aspect of the crime and say because this is different it's another murderer, it might be but if other factors fit it is more than like the same hand in it all. All of the victims were lower order prostitutes, all were killed in dark places used for immoral purposes (except Kelly), and all were killed by having their throats cut (except Tabram). The medical examiners all saw the same hand in the C5 and many of the police felt the Tabram was Jack's as well.


Eric

Eric

[Sam Flynn]

though as a counterbalance it could be argued that they would have been more likely to have kids to feed.

...which would, I think, have been offset by a higher likelihood of having a man of employable age - or an extended family - around to help provide for them. The problem with the C5 (and others like them) was that they were somewhat cast adrift along a number of dimensions.

[Robert]

Yes Gareth, we don't hear of a suspicious man going around asking women their age.

Also, the younger prostitutes would have had higher earnings than the older ones, and would have been less desperate to turn out at all hours of the night looking for custom - though as a counterbalance it could be argued that they would have been more likely to have kids to feed.