The Knife

Hi All,

If going out tooled up with a sharp knife was really as commonplace in 1888 as some have argued, often to support a belief that either Liz or Mary, or both, were murdered on the spur of the moment with a sharp knife being routinely carried by their killer, I don't suppose Jack's method of concealment would necessarily have been all that different from anyone else's.

While there may have been more people carrying knives at the height of the scare to defend themselves in case they came across Jack, that number might have been counterbalanced by fewer men wanting to risk being found with their usual lethal-looking blades, if stopped and questioned by the police.

Love,

Caz
X

I think that there is an issue with cartage here Caz. If the knife Jack used was as described, a strong sharp blade 6-8 inches in length, that makes it a foot to 13 inches with the hilt and in its sheath. Thats almost too long to wear inside a boot, its to heavy and sharp to carry in a pocket without covering the blade, its noticeable when slid up a sleeve to elbow length, and its sheath would extend below the jacket line of most loose arm length coats of the period if worn on a belt.

The knife smezenen pointed out, ...thanks for that image smez..the choice of the From Hell screenwriter as well, would normally be carried in a handled case, as part of set of such instruments probably.

Anything that length usually has a method of cartage...sheath, scabbard, case, stuffed in a Gladstone. Its not a pocket knife by any stretch.

Early Bowie knife sheaths were designed to sit horizontally across the back. Because, the length of the knife was awkward and interfered with riding and walking, chafing the leg its worn on. Plus... to draw a blade that length from a vertical sheath would require lifting that elbow being used above shoulder height to extract it. Awkward.

Best regards Caz, smez, all.

[caz]

Hi All,

If going out tooled up with a sharp knife was really as commonplace in 1888 as some have argued, often to support a belief that either Liz or Mary, or both, were murdered on the spur of the moment with a sharp knife being routinely carried by their killer, I don't suppose Jack's method of concealment would necessarily have been all that different from anyone else's.

While there may have been more people carrying knives at the height of the scare to defend themselves in case they came across Jack, that number might have been counterbalanced by fewer men wanting to risk being found with their usual lethal-looking blades, if stopped and questioned by the police.

Love,

Caz
X

[smezenen]

Michael,
I have alwas leaned toward an amputation knife as the weapon, and in paticular the Liston, or Catlin type as they where double edged. these knifes where very sharp thin and had a short handle compaired to blade length. I like the folding straight razor for the neck work but the internal stuff would have been hard to accomplish with one of those.

[Archaic]

Hi everyone. Wasn't there an Eyewitness who saw a man with one of the victims prior to her death and remarked to investigators that the man "gave the impression of having a wooden arm"?

(I think it was one of the witnesses who testified to seeing Elizabeth Stride, but I may be mistaken.) That observation always struck me as odd. Ever since I first read it, I've wondered if it's possible that it was Jack experimenting with some kind of knife-sheath on his forearm. Seems like it would take some getting used to in order to hold the arm naturally. Of course, it may very well have been a man with a genuine wooden arm for all we know, but it did get me thinking about how Jack would hide his weapon.

While I believe the posters above who state that an arm-sheath is the most efficient way to rapidly dispatch a victim, that method also seems especially frought with danger in the 1880's, when a woman commonly took a man's arm while walking- and perhaps while soliciting. The danger of some Unfortunate suddenly grabbing his arm while chatting him up & cajoling him would have been nerve-racking!

Also, if Jack was in danger of being caught and needed a fast getaway, it seems to me that it would take a bit longer if he had to undo an arm-sheath in order to discard it - much easier if he could just ditch the knife and run.

I suppose Jack experimented with carrying techniques, but inside the front of an overcoat, or inside a small parcel or bag seems safest to me... Any thoughts??

Hi again smezenen,

You duly noted the issue that exists with both arm and upside down in the small of the back....gravity. Damn stuff that.

If we are realistically looking at a blade length of 6-8 inches, which seems consistent with the C5 stats in that range....then with hilt we are looking at what, 12-15 inches total? Thats almost a short sword in terms of sheath size.

Did it fold? Would a sturdy straight razor be able to accomplish the kill cuts and the PM work? Probably...IMHO. Maybe seeing Johnny Depp use those "beauties" on Fleet Street influenced that notion.

A 13-15 inch sheath is an issue, when stealth is a key factor. Hmm.

I guess I havent considered the mechanics of this deeply before. Nice to have your knowledgeable opinion in the mix mate.

All the best.

[smezenen]

Hello Michael,
I dont know about the hilt down part. It would depend on the tightness of the sheath. lets assume it would be made of leather as almost all knife sheaths of that time would have been either leather or wood. I chose leather becouse its the more durable of the two. One good whack and you have broken a wooden sheath. leather has its own problems however, it will expand when wet and shrink when dry. If i remember correctly wasnt there alot of moisture in the air at the time of the murders, rain and fog and such. That would make the leather expand and thus hold the knife tighter but if it where to dry out then the knife would fall from the sheath if it where hung hilt down. I think hilt up would make more sence. and as i write this i realize you would have the same issue if you attached the sheath to your forarm with the hilt toward the wrist. as your arm hang down and with the natural swinging motion or the arm as you walk the knife would slip out unless the sheath was tight. well i have been awake for 24 hours and i dont want to ramble on and on so i'll leave my thoughts there for now.

Bob,
I was just about to post the same thoughts. As an ex-soldier with quite a lot of practicle experience with knifes there are 2 places I might carry a knife if I needed to hide it but still get to it quickly. The forearm covered by my coat sleeve would be my first choice. The other place would be the small of the back tucked into my waistband. I believe Jack used an amputation knife. The Liston-type amputation knife had a slim handle and an 8 inch double edge meaning that you wouldnt have to worry about which way the sharpened edge was facing when you pull it out.

Hi Smezenen,

Im leaning towards the small of the back spot myself for Jack, in a sheath hung hilt down, or tucked down between pant and belt. If he gestures with his hands or arms before attacking, that way he wont risk the weapon being seen on his forearm under the sleeve. They turn around for sex, he subdues them, then reaches back under his coat with his right hand and draws the knife....pulling it down and out.

Best regards

[Eastender]

A razor sharp chefs knife can be carried in a canvas wrap and hidden anywhere on the body. It has the added bonus of being perfectly explainable if discovered by the police. Having said that , I think Smezenen has a very good point.

[smezenen]

Hello Bob and Smezenen

I won`t argue with a soldiers experience, however that would be in a combat situation, and personally, I would be worried that the game would be undone if a policeman grabbed my arm, or one of the ladies links arms with you as you walk along (Kelly and Eddowes seemed quite tactile if the witnesses are to be believed). In the back waistband would work if you had an long overcoat on.

Jon,
In a combat situataion I would have no need to hide my knife and it would be in its place, prominantly displayed on the front strap of my equiptment. For obvious reasons Jack would have to worry about police discovery wherever he carried his knife. As i sit here and think about it more the forarm becomes more logical and the place I would carry it if I had to hide it and be able to get to if fast. I think those are the 2 qualifying factors in his discussion, hidden and fast. You need not worry about someone feeling it when they link arms if you link the other arm.

[Jon Guy]

Hello Bob and Smezenen

I won`t argue with a soldiers experience, however that would be in a combat situation, and personally, I would be worried that the game would be undone if a policeman grabbed my arm, or one of the ladies links arms with you as you walk along (Kelly and Eddowes seemed quite tactile if the witnesses are to be believed). In the back waistband would work if you had an long overcoat on.

[smezenen]

Bob,
I was just about to post the same thoughts. As an ex-soldier with quite a lot of practicle experience with knifes there are 2 places I might carry a knife if I needed to hide it but still get to it quickly. The forearm covered by my coat sleeve would be my first choice. The other place would be the small of the back tucked into my waistband. I believe Jack used an amputation knife. The Liston-type amputation knife had a slim handle and an 8 inch double edge meaning that you wouldnt have to worry about which way the sharpened edge was facing when you pull it out.

[Bob Hinton]

Well this worked for me....

Nope. One of the best places for carrying a long bladed knife is in a sheath fastened to your forearm, handle facing your wrist. In that position you can get at it lying, sitting, standing or just about any other position you can get into. You can also bring it into play very quickly.

If you are holding a rifle for instance, put the rifle in your left hand, grasp the knife handle and bring out. From behind, place your left forearm around the person’s windpipe stifling sound. Pull the knife out in one fluid movement severing the carotid artery as it comes out, push the body forward to avoid arterial spray. Getting covered in blood may look like fun in the horror flicks, however after a couple of hours not only does it start to smell it also has the consistency of jam – very sticky and gooey!

If you wish to carry it covertly you simply fasten it to your forearm under your jacket. To retrieve the blade you simply push the sleeve back as if you are looking at the time and whip the blade out. I’ve got a video of me demonstrating this somewhere.

When you remove the knife in this way it has a momentum all of it’s own, so you retrieve and strike all in one movement.

After you have finished the knife is replaced in it's sheaf and is completely hidden to view, without fumbling around trying to place it in your waistband or leg sheath.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

Inside his jacket seems like the best bet.

[smezenen]

Are there any pics as to what this type of knife with handle may have looked like?

depends on what knife you believed he used. There are many possibilities. Ive even heard a theory about Zulu spear points. anyway here is a poster that shows a few possibilities.

[Barnaby]

Are there any pics as to what this type of knife with handle may have looked like?