Anti-semetism and Mary Kelly

[Roy Corduroy]

Ben, thank you for the Sugden extract, and yes I understand your position exactly. A smart killer taking advantage of prejudice to leave false clues and throw the investigation off his trail. And if the link to this is through the Kelly murder and Hutch's statement of a foreigner, then this is, in every way, every day, a Hutch thread. A dedicated, directed one.

Roy

An interesting extract from The Complete History of Jack the Ripper, for what it's worth:

"...Martin Friedland's suggestion that the murders were carefully contrived to throw as much suspicion as possible on the Jewish community deserves better than it has received by modern commentators. The murder of Elizabeth Stride next to the International Working Men's Education Club, the apparent hailing of an accomplice by the name "Lipski", the murder of Kate Eddowes close to another club (The Imperial) frequented by Jews, and the message "The Juwes are the men that will not be blamed for nothing" chalked in the entry of a house of Jewish tenements - these signify little by themselves but, taken together, begin to a make a persuasive case"

Here's a link to a previous discussion on this theme:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread...ight=psychosis

That is a support for your position Ben, but only for the 2 Ripper murders on the same night...the same ones that I suggest are the only ones with overt Jewish influences and overtones. If Jack the Ripper killed at least the Canonical Group on 4 separate evenings, and he wanted Jews blamed for acts...then why do we see a concerted effort to blame Jews and the potential for the killers antisemitism on only one night?

I see the writing as a suggestion Jews were evading blame for something they actually did, you and the writer above see a potential for the author blaming the Jews...... without any provocation.

One is a man telling the authorities in the message that he feels that Jews have something they are guilty of but are escaping Blame for...the other suggests that the man is an anti-Semite and is blaming Jews based on that prejudice alone.

I feel based only on the GSG, that the author feels Jews are to blame for something that took place that night that he...or someone else, is ...or more accurately "will"... be blamed for.

Cheers Ben

[Ben]

An interesting extract from The Complete History of Jack the Ripper, for what it's worth:

"...Martin Friedland's suggestion that the murders were carefully contrived to throw as much suspicion as possible on the Jewish community deserves better than it has received by modern commentators. The murder of Elizabeth Stride next to the International Working Men's Education Club, the apparent hailing of an accomplice by the name "Lipski", the murder of Kate Eddowes close to another club (The Imperial) frequented by Jews, and the message "The Juwes are the men that will not be blamed for nothing" chalked in the entry of a house of Jewish tenements - these signify little by themselves but, taken together, begin to a make a persuasive case"

Here's a link to a previous discussion on this theme:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=336&highlight=psychosis

yes this could be true as well, but what this does; is to help link the Stride murder to Eddowes... regardless of what the Ripper actually meant...

this is just a theory, but to me it makes sene

Hi Malcolm,

In my post.. the one you responded to, the GSG in the scenario I proposed would be intended to distance the Mitre Square murderer from the Stride murder, not link him to it. The true meaning of the phrase in the authors mind would dictate which is more likely the case.

I think that there is anti-semitism evident in the records....I just dont see the Ripper victims other than Stride having much if anything to do with Jews in particular. I think things like a Senior Policeman suggesting "it was a Polish Jew"....as an "ascertained fact" is where you find anti-semitic overtones....because there is no evidence that I can see for that remark....other than many Jews were living in the East End at the time, some being from Poland.

Cheers Malcolm.

[Malcolm X]

Hi Ben,

I think thats a fair position based on actual evidence,....my only change.. based on my perceptions... to that would be that I suspect the GSG was written by the Mitre Square killer to properly assign blame for Liz Stride to the Jews at that club...not to hint at Jewish involvement in acts that the Ripper didnt commit.

All the best Ben.

yes this could be true as well, but what this does; is to help link the Stride murder to Eddowes... regardless of what the Ripper actually meant...

this is just a theory, but to me it makes sene

[Malcolm X]

And I don't understand or buy into that premise.

Hutchison's statement is shaped by his worldview. The victorian music hall villain, the prejudices against foreigners. This is exactly one thing. Him and his statement. There is nothing else in the Kelly murder that qualifies as anti-semitism. (AS)

But somehow a conection is attempted between AS with other things. First of all, Liz Stride had her throat slit and was left to die in a dark "yard." In England, a "yard" is an enclosed place between structures. The kind of place this serial killer favored. The fact that there was a revolutionary workingmen's club next door is a coincidence. It only shows that this happened in a working class area, with some immigrants located there.

The grafitto mentions Jews. That is one thing. It connects to the Eddowes apron. It doesn't connect to Mary Kelly.

The police were concerned about AS and took steps to control. These are know facts.

Mary Kelly & AS is a non-starter. And that's not meant as a put- down, Malcom, I'm just giving my opinion. It seems just another backdoor way to discuss Hutch in General Discussion. Aren't there already like loads of Hutch threads? Under, what, Suspects, Witnesses?

But having said that, carry on please.

Roy

no not at all, Eddowes and Kelly are almost definitely both ripper victims, they're so similar, look at the face mutilations, the abdominal mutilations, etc, the Kelly murder is far more hideous because he was inside/ plenty of time etc..........as for Stride, well it's very odd that we have Eddowes murdered soon after, and an anti-semetic message.... which would be best placed at Dutfields yard.

dont you find it strange that Dutfields yard is a jewish locality and yet the message ended up in Ghoulston st... The ripper chose a Jewish location to kill in advance, but was disturbed at the Stride murder, so he went in search of another victim, killed her; then linked the two murders via the anti-semetic graffiti.......which was originally intended for Dutfields.

many say Stride was not a ripper victim, because we have no mutilations; but she has the classic cut throat, plus the killer was waiting for her blood to drain out before starting his ghastly mutilations anyway... at this exact time, he heard a cart comming along on the cobblestones, this would have made one hell of a noise, so he legged it and went in search of another victim..

what i'm saying is both Eddowes and Kelly are Ripper victims, but we have nothing anti-semetic at Mary's murder site, this is most odd; because if my theory is right ( might of course not be) then the Ripper was starting an anti-semetic hate crusade...trying to create rioting on the streets, a rabel rouser!

the anti-semetism and loads of it, came from Hutchinson a few days later... now is this pure coincidence, well; to me it's highly suspicious.

Hi Mike,

Just for clarification, I don't believe the murderer himself was Jewish, nor do I believe that he harboured any anti-semitic grudges himself. I do believe that he may have taken steps, wherever an opportnity presented itself, to ensure that the public suspicion remained Jew-focussed.

Cheers,

Ben

Hi Ben,

I think thats a fair position based on actual evidence,....my only change.. based on my perceptions... to that would be that I suspect the GSG was written by the Mitre Square killer to properly assign blame for Liz Stride to the Jews at that club...not to hint at Jewish involvement in acts that the Ripper didnt commit.

All the best Ben.

[Roy Corduroy]

Hi everyone,

Ben, thank you for the reply and I agree with everything you said. It could have happened a number of different ways. But if the link to anti-semitism is Hutch and his statement of a foreigner, then by golly, this is a 100% bonafide Hutch thead.

I could just as easily start a thread titled Misdirection and show how Joe Silver, the rootless psychopath who abused his own people, may have used deception in his murder spree. That would be a suspect thread.

Or I could start a thread titled Upholstery Tool and surmise such a tool may have been used in the murders, and that James Kelly was an upholsterer by trade. A suspect thread.

And Michael, again, if suspicions are cast on the IWEC club members, then by all means, rev up a suspect thread on them. Put the pedal to the metal.

Roy

[Ben]

Hi Mike,

Just for clarification, I don't believe the murderer himself was Jewish, nor do I believe that he harboured any anti-semitic grudges himself. I do believe that he may have taken steps, wherever an opportnity presented itself, to ensure that the public suspicion remained Jew-focussed.

Cheers,

Ben

The only thing that even could remotely connect the killing of Mary Kelly to any ethnicity is Astrakan Man, and the assumption that her killer was involved with the ONLY night that does have many Jewish overtones, the Double Event. Since.... much to our own Richard's frustration... Hutchinson's suspect was discarded by the officials 120 years ago, and since we dont know that Marys murder was by the same man who killed on the night when Judaism plays a large role in the witnesses and locations....there is nothing that is believed to be evidence that links Marys death to anything Jewish.

In the case of the second, we can be fairly certain that the man called Jack the Ripper may have been involved in the Mitre Square murder, with Jewish witnesses that may have seen the pick-up,.. coming from a Jewish Club, with the Great Synagogue looming over the square itself. But there is nothing that would tie that killer to any ethnicity in evidence....unless its that he chose to drop the apron near where he himself lived.

In the case of the first, a murdered woman is found dead on Jewish Socialists property, after a meeting for members and visitors who were part of that same demographic, with some 28 of them still in attendance.

Without Israel Schwartz, a Socialist Jew who happens to be in the immediate area of a Jewish Socialists Club... and an altercation with the deceased just before she dies happening OFF property...the Jewish Socialists on site would be....without doubt... the primary suspect pool for that murder.

Judaism in any form or manner is not present in accepted testimony, nor in the accepted evidence, in the investigation into the death of Mary Kelly.

Its is relevant in the location, site witnesses and eyewitnesses in the death of Liz Stride,... and it is in witness form, and marginally the location.. and in the apron section location, in the death that occurs in Mitre Square.

Sorry, but the thread premise is baseless really....anti semetism and Mary Kellys death have no evidence that is present or believed to connect them....other than the authorities view and opinion that the two murders that did have Jewish influences The Double Event were by the same fellow as the killer in room 13...a view I dont personally share.

Best regards

[Ben]

The fact that there was a revolutionary workingmen's club next door is a coincidence. It only shows that this happened in a working class area, with some immigrants located there.

Actually, it's only your opinion that it's a mere "coincidence". It might be more significant than that, especially when we know that the Eddowes murder was also committed in close proxmity to a Jewish club. I've no doubt that both locations were attractive because of their secluded nature, but that doesn't eradicate the possibility that he sought to take advantage of popular Jew-scapegoating in the process. Both Philip Sugden and Martin Friedland recognise the merit in the suggestion.

That doesn't mean, necessarily, that the killer was an anti-semite himself; simply that he took advantage of anti-semitic sentiment where he perceived an advantage in doing so.

The grafitto mentions Jews. That is one thing. It connects to the Eddowes apron. It doesn't connect to Mary Kelly.

True, but since Eddowes is connected to Kelly by virtue of them having been murdered, most probably, by the same hand, it naturally allows for the possibility that potential Jew-implicating antics from one murder might have been adopted with some of the others.

All the best,
Ben

[Roy Corduroy]

...back to the original premise of the thread, which was anti-semitism and Mary Kelly.

And I don't understand or buy into that premise.

Hutchison's statement is shaped by his worldview. The victorian music hall villain, the prejudices against foreigners. This is exactly one thing. Him and his statement. There is nothing else in the Kelly murder that qualifies as anti-semitism. (AS)

But somehow a conection is attempted between AS with other things. First of all, Liz Stride had her throat slit and was left to die in a dark "yard." In England, a "yard" is an enclosed place between structures. The kind of place this serial killer favored. The fact that there was a revolutionary workingmen's club next door is a coincidence. It only shows that this happened in a working class area, with some immigrants located there.

The grafitto mentions Jews. That is one thing. It connects to the Eddowes apron. It doesn't connect to Mary Kelly.

The police were concerned about AS and took steps to control. These are know facts.

Mary Kelly & AS is a non-starter. And that's not meant as a put- down, Malcom, I'm just giving my opinion. It seems just another backdoor way to discuss Hutch in General Discussion. Aren't there already like loads of Hutch threads? Under, what, Suspects, Witnesses?

But having said that, carry on please.

Roy

[Ben]

Certainly speculation is in fine form here

You'd fit right in then.

Richard, you've got a problematic habit of asking a succession or rhetorical questions as a substitute for actually addressing the points raised "Why can't we just believe? Oh, why can't we just accept?". If you find the speculation here to be not in allignment with your world view, show us where we're going wrong, but don't keep asking crass questions that have been addressed countless times before.

how can we believe that Hutchinson was also Blotchy face /Flemming, and that this person actually went to the police to offer his services, either 'just for jolly', or to shield an accomplice

Blotchy and Wideawake have a very similar appearance, and in light of Lewis' and Hutchinson's evidence, there is reason to suspect that Hutchinson may have been the wideawake man. Since serial killers have been known to insert themselves into police investigations where they perceive an advantage of necessity in doing so (in the wake of being seen at the crime scene, for example) Hutchinson is therefore a legitimately suspicion character. Fleming is simply one possible suggested identity for Hutchinson, given that none of the Hutchinson's in London appear to fit, in my view at least, and that the circumstances of the two men tally somewhat. Of course, none of those are cherished theories of mine. Just some of the more reasonable explanations permitted by the extant evidence.

Why can we not simply adjust to the most logical explanation , ie.. he was speaking the truth, he saw a fancy dude with his friend Mary Kelly, he witnessed them meeting , he heard the laughter, hew witnessed them both walk back pass him, he followed them to Dorset street, and he witnessed the kissing before the couple entered the court.

That's not accepting the "most logical" explanation.

That's just taking the whole thing at face value.

Why is it impossible[ words used by Bob H] that such a meeting took place?

Rhetorical questions again. Because the contents of his statement tell us as much, as far as I'm concerned.

It would appear so, his approach is very similar to Marshalls [ Berner street] man of clerk appearance, his age, and the kissing of the victim, and of decent dress.

Forgetting of course that Hutchinson could have read about all of this, and incorporated the details into his own account to give it a veneer of plausibility. Considering the indications that he borrowed rather liberally from other witness descriptions, I'd say that's a very reasonable explanation.

Now, not another generic, generalized Hutchinson debate please, but rather back to the original premise of the thread, which was anti-semitism and Mary Kelly.

Best regards,
Ben

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Certainly speculation is in fine form here.
I am lost for words , I have a reputation for speculating, but how can we believe that Hutchinson was also Blotchy face /Flemming, and that this person actually went to the police to offer his services, either 'just for jolly', or to shield an accomplice.
Recently on Casebook we have been treated with three signatures to compare, and that has given more favour that GWTH, was the witness known as Hutchinson, we have no reason to believe[ infact the opposite] that this person, was either a homicidal maniac, or an accomplice to one. back in 1888.
So why is it many members like to place him in the frame?
Why can we not simply adjust to the most logical explanation , ie.. he was speaking the truth, he saw a fancy dude with his friend Mary Kelly, he witnessed them meeting , he heard the laughter, hew witnessed them both walk back pass him, he followed them to Dorset street, and he witnessed the kissing before the couple entered the court.
Why is it impossible[ words used by Bob H] that such a meeting took place?
Question did this person Astracan, kill Mjk?
It would appear so, his approach is very similar to Marshalls [ Berner street] man of clerk appearance, his age, and the kissing of the victim, and of decent dress.
But it accepting this, we have to disregard Maxwells. M lewis, morning sightings.
I firmly believe that the man hutchinson, believed he was the last person to have seen Mary Kelly alive, and because of this he saw JTR.
But was this the case?
Regards Richard.

[Malcolm X]

My main reason for doubting that Jack was the author of the GSG was that it would be irrational for a man fleeing a murder to stop and do that. However, if the whole point of the killings was to stir up hatred of the Jewish people then the GSG makes a whole lot more sense.

Sir Charles Warren certainly thought that if the GSG were seen it would lead to antisemitic riots. Maybe erasing it was really a good thing.

hi Diana

he was fleeing mitre square yes, but Ghoulston st was probably relatively safe that time of night, he was probably on his way home, but had to leave the bloody fragment of apron, to link the graffiti to the victim..

this graffiti was probably intended for Dutfields yard, but of course he was disturbed and yet again, was disturbed at Eddowes, hence the GSG further away...

this spooked him, so he took a month break to let the streets quiet down again, he then went in search of a victim that he could seriously butcher without being disturbed YET AGAIN........so this has to be indoors.

No Anti-semetism this time?.......... yes there is, from Hutchinson ( loads of it) , in addition; Victoria homes where he was staying, is on his way home from GHOULSTON STREET.....

is this a crazy theory?... not really, but the Ripper was very foolish going to the police............... or was he:-

1..... we have no descent suspect descriptions....not one of them would stand up in a Court of law.
2.....all these so called suspects could all have been innocent punters.
3.....HUTCHINSON has left no clues at the Victoria homes.... not one shred of evidence.........even if the police find a knife, well what this means nothing
4.....you could not convict HUTCH as the ripper back then without modern forensics/ DNA, you would have to catch him committing murder or fleeing the scene.

if HUTCH was the ripper, he took a huge risk going to Abberline, but you can see that it was risk that he thought was worth taking... due to all the anti-semetic press coverage he got...

Abberline dismised him later on as an:- attention seeking time wasting liar, yes exactly... that is exactly what Hutch was.

he never saw Kelly outside, not in a million years.... but did he lie because he was the Ripper or not, well; i'm not sure, just a theory i've had for years

because the ripper is either him or BLOTCHY FACE