Anti-semetism and Mary Kelly

In case you missed it, Mike, there was more than a hint of "Hans Inside" with Kelly - in fact, more "Inside" than in his previous three, and much more HANDling, too.

Thats why she is a potential Gareth, I know, her killer wasnt adverse to acts most killers would be....but thread wise, all Hans Inside did that has any link to Jews is he left a piece of bloody apron near a Jewish housing complex, and was seen by Jews picking up Kate. If Slice N Dash killed Liz, he is possibly a Jew himself and maybe from that club, and with Hans blamed for Liz by the cries of the club members, Slice and the Club "will not be blamed for nothing".

I dont see any tie in Marys murder to antisemitism other than in the story given by a man who is disbelieved by the same people who believed him 72 hours earlier.

Cheers Sam

[Sam Flynn]

In case you missed it, Mike, there was more than a hint of "Hans Inside" with Kelly - in fact, more "Inside" than in his previous three, and much more HANDling, too.

Hi Mal,

Sorry late to comment but I liked both posts, and I and Ben have discussed Flem Hutchinson, and Hutch Fleming a bit since I came here too.

But I just invented names I like for the various characterizations of The Jack the Ripper the Canonical Group forms.....theres Mr I. M. Craven Cutten who kills Mary,.... theres Mr Slice N Dash that kills Liz Stride, and there is Mr Hans Inside...who kills the women who all have their abdomens probed, and handles the things he takes out.

I dont see that we need to have 3 different personnas to explain 1 Ripper killer....and Mr Hans Inside just leaves a piece of cloth in an alley where Jewish people live and has some anti-semitic values hoisted on him as a result?

Mr Slice N Dash may be Jewish for all we know...if he was from that club, almost certainly.

Hutchinsons fake Astrakan Man in all practicality suggests he was a antisemite...but not Craven Cutten.

Best regards

[Malcolm X]

Hi Malcolm,

I

Not only is Hutch unconnected on paper to any other Ripper crime or night, its not even proven that the Ripper killer wrote the GSG himself....or that its meaning isnt pro-Jew.

Best regards.

be careful of this, because no other suspect is directly connected to the ripper either, and in addition, the ripper could've written GSG and it could be anti-semetic... see what i mean, all of this is just a confusing mess

the trouble is, all we have is speculation... we having nothing else; even so, some is more realistic than others

[Malcolm X]

Hi Malcolm,

I agree totally that the suspects and many of the posts are based almost exclusively on extensions of thought and circumstantial evidence...not on related physical evidence or facts. Im not one to cast aspersions on logical extensions or creative thinking...as Im sure Ben knows....I do that myself all the time...but I like to think that each leap I make in that manner is based upon some factual foothold first..something clearly in evidence.

For example I dont believe Mary left her room after arriving home with Blotchy. Because there are no accredited courtyard witnesses that saw or heard that event if it occurred....nor did anyone hear or see the return that must logically have taken place as a result.

People speculate that she did anyway all the time regardless of the known facts, often to support Hutchinson's already discreditted remarks, or to enhance the possibility that Mary met her killer while she too was out soliciting on the street....like it is assumed all 4 others were. Most dont bug me.....the ones that are speculating she went out because she had some unrecorded fear of imminent eviction do.

The point for me is that in terms of "accepted as truth" evidence that was collected or submitted regarding that night, Mary and that room,... there is no foundation for that speculation found in evidence, in her friends or lovers remarks about her, or in physical evidence that is found in her room.

Just like,... in my opinion,... at this point all we can safely suggest regarding Hutchinson is that his story was odd, his sighting was disbelieved, and his semi-official role in the proceedings ends very quickly. Fair speculation might be that since his Astrakan Man is probably a fictional character, his choosing a Jewish man might reveal his own antisemitic attitudes. Suggesting that ties in with what may be antisemitic overtones in a chalk message near Ripper crime evidence is a little too far along the road.

Not only is Hutch unconnected on paper to any other Ripper crime or night, its not even proven that the Ripper killer wrote the GSG himself....or that its meaning isnt pro-Jew.

Best regards.

yes i agree with most of this, there is no evidence to implicate Hutchinson, but that is also true of all suspects... even Blotchy, because he might have left MARY'S an innocent man later on, but not seen doing so...

but believing that Mary never went out again ( like you) focuses my attention back on BLOTCHY/HUTCH, it really is as simple as this.

most likely killer is Blotchy, simply because i dont think the ripper would've gone to the police; it's the last thing he'd do... it's too far fetched, life isn't as complicated as this... this seems like a Joe Average local whose a real sicko..i'm was just mentioning with thread, an alternate theory that's all.

yes HUTCH could have been a known friend of Mary's, but if so; it's very risky going to the police as HUTCH... because anybody that knew KELLY well could recognise him, not only from the inquest; but also from the papers... unless he knew her, before Dorset st, this could implicate Fleming...who knows!

in addition and the most important of all, HUTCH's signatures match.... all 3 of them, so with all respect to Ben, this rules out any imposter.

BEN and i were huge Hutchinson posters a few years ago, it was us two that started all these H threads, we went crazy back then ... i wasn't called MALCOLM X back then either, i had to re-register recently; i had over 2 000 posts, but i'm not as active nowadays; not as intense.

so, it looks like it really is either HUTCH or Blotchy... whoever the hell he is

we need to trace Blotchy ............ flipping heck! i will open a new thread soon, but first i must take a look at all the main suspects... do a little bit of homework again, because like when i took my ``O levels`` all those years ago, i've forgotten far more than i ever learnt!

In fairness I should add that in Bens case....I hope you wont mind me speaking for you on this matter Ben.....he is looking at a possible connection that involves a man named Hutchinson but who is actually a known individual in Marys life under another name....in which case deflecting suspicion wouldnt be valuable, it would be essential.

Just so you know I do understand some of the variables here.

Cheers all.

Hi Malcolm,

I agree totally that the suspects and many of the posts are based almost exclusively on extensions of thought and circumstantial evidence...not on related physical evidence or facts. Im not one to cast aspersions on logical extensions or creative thinking...as Im sure Ben knows....I do that myself all the time...but I like to think that each leap I make in that manner is based upon some factual foothold first..something clearly in evidence.

For example I dont believe Mary left her room after arriving home with Blotchy. Because there are no accredited courtyard witnesses that saw or heard that event if it occurred....nor did anyone hear or see the return that must logically have taken place as a result.

People speculate that she did anyway all the time regardless of the known facts, often to support Hutchinson's already discreditted remarks, or to enhance the possibility that Mary met her killer while she too was out soliciting on the street....like it is assumed all 4 others were. Most dont bug me.....the ones that are speculating she went out because she had some unrecorded fear of imminent eviction do.

The point for me is that in terms of "accepted as truth" evidence that was collected or submitted regarding that night, Mary and that room,... there is no foundation for that speculation found in evidence, in her friends or lovers remarks about her, or in physical evidence that is found in her room.

Just like,... in my opinion,... at this point all we can safely suggest regarding Hutchinson is that his story was odd, his sighting was disbelieved, and his semi-official role in the proceedings ends very quickly. Fair speculation might be that since his Astrakan Man is probably a fictional character, his choosing a Jewish man might reveal his own antisemitic attitudes. Suggesting that ties in with what may be antisemitic overtones in a chalk message near Ripper crime evidence is a little too far along the road.

Not only is Hutch unconnected on paper to any other Ripper crime or night, its not even proven that the Ripper killer wrote the GSG himself....or that its meaning isnt pro-Jew.

Best regards.

[Ben]

At least my perspective would have actual physical evidence and medical opinion that supports my claim.

Not really, and it's heavily at odds with both the preponderance of medical evidence and what we know to be true about most mutilating serial killers. Some of the leading contemporary police officials believed that Kelly, Eddowes and Stride were killed by the same person, who, during the course of the double event, sought to deflect suspicion onto the Jews.

you pointed out that the ONLY night that anything resembling Jewish involvement in Ripper investigations was the Double Event night.

I didn't point that out.

The Kelly murder had a Jewish association by virtue of the fact that Hutchinson came forward and implicated a Jewish-looking man. Regardless of his motives for saying so, it's an irrefutably Jewish connection to the MJK murder.

but since his story is discreditted anyway, why worry about his motivations for coming forward.

Because there are compelling indications that he was near the crime scene that night, regardless of the fact that he may have lied about his reasons for being there. You say he's only suspicious "if" he's Wideawake, and based on the fact that he came forward and admitted to loitering with the same intentions as "Wideawake" as soon as Lewis' evidence became public knowledge, I'd say there's a good deal to justify the "speculation" that they were one and the same.

But if you then want to imagine he writes the GSG while there specifically to misdirect the police towards a Jewish suspect....by the location and the phrase......then why would you imagine the route the apron is found on as relates to Mitre Square isnt complete misdirection as well?

I think it probably was.

By casting the apron into a well-known Jewish dwelling, he could very well have been "misdirecting" investigative focus onto a Jewish residential area. If he was bolting directly for home, as I believe he was, then it was most convenient for him that a well-known Jewish enclave lay en route between crime scene and bolt-hole. I'm not suggesting that he'd go out of his way to misdirect the police. I'm suggesting that he seized the opportunity to take advantage of prejudice wherever it was convenient to do so.

There is little if any continuity in the behavior I see you propose for Jack the Ripper Ben....partly because you are willing to accept the Canonical Group or more than 5 victims

Which, if you take the trouble to read up on other serial cases and the experts who have decades of experience in studying them, you'll find to be a pretty sensible acceptance. Better by far that trying too fine-tune a serial killer's MO to an unrealistic degree and then claiming that he couldn't have been responsible for any others. That isn't remotely indicative of a lack of "continuity in the behaviour that I propose for JTR". I find that an incredibly strange and difficult-to-justify observation.

If he wrote the GSG and it was misdirection...you can safely bet where it was written wasnt on his route home

Errrrr...no.

We can "safely bet" nothing of the kind. I've never suggested that Jew-implicating was his overriding incentive; only that he sought to make the best of any opportunities that presented themselves. Jewish hotspots weren't exactly difficult to find, so he hardly needed to take a detour to get to one. The chances of coming across such an enclave en route home was statistically very high.

but I think that in your search to explain Hutchinson in terms of his possible guilt, youre putting out and justifying concepts you wouldnt accept from me or anyone else.

I don't need to justify the concept, since it's obviously plausible, and if I heard a similar argument advanced by anyone else in favour of another suspect, I wouldn't fault them for it. It is perfectly possible that the killer took advantage of popular prejudice - no complicated shinnigans involved in such a basic premise.

[Malcolm X]

a lot of this is what you sense/ just a theory... just like what you read on other suspect posts here too, none of it is concrete and the trouble with favouring a certain suspect beyond any other, is it can cloud your judgement with far too much bias... i notice this from every poster here, the blinkers go up, it's very hard to remain neutral and impartial, it's too easy to dismiss others arguements... you tend to see your suspect as the Ripper only, especially Ripper authors, this is because one becomes far too focused..

this is not what's happening here, not with me; because i'm still highly suspicious of Blotchy too... because i dont think for one minute, that Blotchy and Hutch are the same person.

Hi again Ben,

Just to address one point, I have far less issue suggesting the killer of some the Canonicals were killed for their uterus than I would suggesting The Ripper wanted to implicate Jews as evidenced by Astrakan Man offered by Hutchinson....who happened to be the killer of Kate and Liz and the author of the GSG too. At least my perspective would have actual physical evidence and medical opinion that supports my claim. Fair is fair.

As you wisely did, you pointed out that the ONLY night that anything resembling Jewish involvement in Ripper investigations was the Double Event night. We also have no idea why Hutchinson offered a Jewish businessman as his suspect.....I would go so far as to say that might be anti-semitism expressed on his part....but since his story is discreditted anyway, why worry about his motivations for coming forward. He might just be the kook he appears to be, and have no connection to Mary Kelly at all...living or dead. For me, he isnt at all a compelling and suspicious figure....unless he was Wideawake Man, which is speculation.

On the Double Event, if you want to imagine that the killer from Mitre Square killed both women that night...thats fair, lots do. If you want to imagine he left the apron piece in Goulston because it was on his route home, you can do so. But if you then want to imagine he writes the GSG while there specifically to misdirect the police towards a Jewish suspect....by the location and the phrase......then why would you imagine the route the apron is found on as relates to Mitre Square isnt complete misdirection as well? Isnt it just as likely in that scenario that he placed the apron at that place to misdirect a search as well based on your theory?

He leaves a murder scene clue on his way to his own home, but leaves a note misdirecting suspicion about the killer?

If I buy your suggestion that the GSG was written by Jack after killing two women to misdirect the suspicion for the killings onto the Jews...it is not logical that he would do so leaving it somewhere on a direct line between the murder scene and his real home. If he is seeking misdirection towards Jews, that very Jewish location must be considered part of that misdirection ruse....which then makes the delay in the appearance of the apron part of a contrived misdirection episode....and suggests that if anything, he would probably have lived in the opposite direction of where he was "misleading" the police with the apron. Which probably then would put his actual home North, West or South of Mitre Square, not North East from it. Anywhere that he could physically walk to and return from in the time it takes for the apron to be discovered.

If he leads them to an entrenched Jewish enclave and hints that they were responsible as misdirection.....(an interpretation of the GSG that is the opposite of its actual wording),.. then it would naturally follow he doesnt live there himself.

There is little if any continuity in the behavior I see you propose for Jack the Ripper Ben....partly because you are willing to accept the Canonical Group or more than 5 victims, even though only 3 of the 5 have physical evidence matches with the perceived access/attack/kill/postmortem and abdominal mutilations ....but not less than the Canon....and partly because you suggest that he is a poor local man.....many of which were in fact Jewish,... but that this one even if Jewish is an anti-semite who misdirects police with chalk messages accusing Jews very vaguely while dropping an apron piece, on his way from murdering, on his way home.

If he wrote the GSG and it was misdirection...you can safely bet where it was written wasnt on his route home, but somewhere he associated with primarily Jewish residents. Please dont ask that I accept he misdirects with chalk messages but not the physical evidence.

I know you to be a solid researcher and knowledgeable man on the times and the cases themselves, and in general.....but I think that in your search to explain Hutchinson in terms of his possible guilt, youre putting out and justifying concepts you wouldnt accept from me or anyone else.

All the best my friend.

[Malcolm X]

Ben and Roy....

The only statement you could make regarding Hutchinson and antisemitism at this time is that he may have demonstrated his when he fabricated a Jewish suspect seen with Mary. None of that ties in with any other evidence that may suggest antisemitism as well.,...and thats the opinion of some of the Police of a Jewish killer, and the GSG, based on its actual meaning...which we dont know....and if written by Kates killer...which we dont know.

Best regards gents.

it depends how you interpret what he's said, because i intrepret this as anti-semetic and what HUTCH has said later too, very much so........ this was years before i was suspicious of Hutchinson.

there he was searching through Petticoat Lane with the police for a Jewish suspect, now if you did the same nowadays; this might cause a race riot on the streets... because many people would interpret his actions/what the papers said etc; as being racial discrimination..i would certainly find it offensive.

why doesn't Hutch blame an Irishman or even a local Brit, after all; nearly all the suspect descriptions seem to match a local ``Joe Average``..... but no, he plays the anti-semetic card instead ...or, he hints at it a little bit too much.... and of course, it is also convenient for him to mention a LA DE DA Jew; because it draws attention away from a local suspect............MAYBE HIM!

what Ben sais below is right, Hutch is actually more guilty looking than nearly all the top ripper suspects... only Blotchy face is as guilty.

in addition, if Mary Cox's description of BLOTCHY is accurate, then this rules out nearly every top suspect.... 5ft 5'' high, but is it accurate?..it'll be pretty close... she walked right past him!

Hutch isn't killing because he's Anti-semetic only, please dont get this wrong in my theory, he's killing mainly because he enjoys it.

In addition, many people even today are very anti-semetc.. the Jews are very unpopular, but i dont think we want to discuss this here; but it is worth mentioning

i quote:- ``Hutchinson told a story that wasnt believed by the authorities``... yes quite true he lied, but why he lied is either one of two reasons.

[Ben]

Hi Mike,

The only problems of course are that there is no evidence that links Marys killer to Kates or Liz's aside from opinion

Blimey, if that's the only problem, I'm more confident in the validity of this particular scenario than ever. If you wish to attribute Kelly, Eddowes and Stride to three different killers, you're more than welcome to do so, but I tend to disregard that as a chink in the armour of Mal's suggestion.

All totaled... there is no evidence that anything related to the murders themselves has anything to do with Jewish people

Well, you know that's not true, since you've also highlighted the Jewish associations with the double event murders. Irrepsective of whichever light you view Hutchinson in - from a serial killer to a paragon or truthful violin-playing virtue - his description of a man of Jewish appearance unquestionably qualifies as something that "has to do with Jewish people".

Im always amazed when people accept the convoluted, unsupported answers, before the face value ones.

Like Tumblety sending someone to embark on a uterus-collecting spree...

If anyone imagines that he actually had a role in Marys death or in any of the other Ripper murders...at this point in time, they do that with only imagination as a foundation or platform.

It requires imagination to assign any one invididual the mantle of Jack the Ripper, but in Hutchinson's case, I'd argue that a good deal less is required. It doesn't take a huge leap of faith to infer that an individual who may have lied about his behaviour near a crime scene may have been the murderer, irrespective of the fact that he may not be the correct answer.

None of that ties in with any other evidence that may suggest antisemitism

Though it ties in very nicely indeed with other evidence that may suggest the implication of the Jewish community, regardless of whether anti-semitism was a motive or not.

Best regards,
Ben

Ben and Roy....

The only statement you could make regarding Hutchinson and antisemitism at this time is that he may have demonstrated his when he fabricated a Jewish suspect seen with Mary. None of that ties in with any other evidence that may suggest antisemitism as well.,...and thats the opinion of some of the Police of a Jewish killer, and the GSG, based on its actual meaning...which we dont know....and if written by Kates killer...which we dont know.

Best regards gents.

Ben, thank you for the Sugden extract, and yes I understand your position exactly. A smart killer taking advantage of prejudice to leave false clues and throw the investigation off his trail. And if the link to this is through the Kelly murder and Hutch's statement of a foreigner, then this is, in every way, every day, a Hutch thread. A dedicated, directed one.

Roy

Ok, so I see the premise here,....Hutch insinuating a Jew into the mix makes him, if Marys killer, an anti-semite or someone wanting Jews blamed for the murders. If he is also the guy who leaves the GSG...then you have 2 examples. I see.

The only problems of course are that there is no evidence that links Marys killer to Kates or Liz's aside from opinion...there is no Jew that is believed to be seen last with Mary Kelly even though Hutchinson tried to insert one for a few days,... Blotchy is the last man and we dont know he was Jewish, we cant be sure the man that left the apron piece...likely the man they called Jack, wrote the GSG at all, and there is the opinion of many Police that they believed a Jew was responsible for the murders in the first place. Which then makes antisemitic writing confusing.

All totaled... there is no evidence that anything related to the murders themselves has anything to do with Jewish people aside from police opinion and a possible translation of the GSG....and an opinion that Hutchinson's Astrakan Man may have been attempts at antisemitic misdirection.

Im always amazed when people accept the convoluted, unsupported answers, before the face value ones.

I know Ben is looking for ways to explain Hutchinson from a potential culpability perspective....but this is to me getting a little to far on the unstable side of the fence to make that work.

Hutch was believed to have lied to the police....thats his remarkable contribution to the events. Some think hes also Wideawake....which makes only his "loitering" part of his story at least something that may have corroboration. If anyone imagines that he actually had a role in Marys death or in any of the other Ripper murders...at this point in time, they do that with only imagination as a foundation or platform.

Hutchinson told a story that wasnt believed by the authorities. That may be the extent of his involvement,.....just like Packers.

Best regards all.

[Ben]

Fair enough, Roy. I see your point. Hutchwards!

Hi Mike,

then why do we see a concerted effort to blame Jews and the potential for the killers antisemitism on only one night?

My view is that he sought to take advantage of popular scapegoating when it became most apparent that the Jews were in the frame, and that perception was at it's peak around the time of the Hanbury Street murder, courtesy of the "Leather Apron" scare. If, in addition to all that, a gentile ripper had been comforted by the fact that the most recent eyewitness (Liz Long) had implicated a foreigner, I can easily imagine the killer taking steps thereafter to ensure that that particular cow was well and truly milked.

Malcolm's observation was that it's possible that the killer continued the Jew-implicating theme in the wake of the Kelly murder.

All the best,
Ben