Anti-semetism and Mary Kelly

[Malcolm X]

a lot of this is what you sense/ just a theory... just like what you read on other suspect posts here too, none of it is concrete and the trouble with favouring a certain suspect beyond any other, is it can cloud your judgement with far too much bias... i notice this from every poster here, the blinkers go up, it's very hard to remain neutral and impartial, it's too easy to dismiss others arguements... you tend to see your suspect as the Ripper only, especially Ripper authors, this is because one becomes far too focused..

this is not what's happening here, not with me; because i'm still highly suspicious of Blotchy too... because i dont think for one minute, that Blotchy and Hutch are the same person.

[Ben]

At least my perspective would have actual physical evidence and medical opinion that supports my claim.

Not really, and it's heavily at odds with both the preponderance of medical evidence and what we know to be true about most mutilating serial killers. Some of the leading contemporary police officials believed that Kelly, Eddowes and Stride were killed by the same person, who, during the course of the double event, sought to deflect suspicion onto the Jews.

you pointed out that the ONLY night that anything resembling Jewish involvement in Ripper investigations was the Double Event night.

I didn't point that out.

The Kelly murder had a Jewish association by virtue of the fact that Hutchinson came forward and implicated a Jewish-looking man. Regardless of his motives for saying so, it's an irrefutably Jewish connection to the MJK murder.

but since his story is discreditted anyway, why worry about his motivations for coming forward.

Because there are compelling indications that he was near the crime scene that night, regardless of the fact that he may have lied about his reasons for being there. You say he's only suspicious "if" he's Wideawake, and based on the fact that he came forward and admitted to loitering with the same intentions as "Wideawake" as soon as Lewis' evidence became public knowledge, I'd say there's a good deal to justify the "speculation" that they were one and the same.

But if you then want to imagine he writes the GSG while there specifically to misdirect the police towards a Jewish suspect....by the location and the phrase......then why would you imagine the route the apron is found on as relates to Mitre Square isnt complete misdirection as well?

I think it probably was.

By casting the apron into a well-known Jewish dwelling, he could very well have been "misdirecting" investigative focus onto a Jewish residential area. If he was bolting directly for home, as I believe he was, then it was most convenient for him that a well-known Jewish enclave lay en route between crime scene and bolt-hole. I'm not suggesting that he'd go out of his way to misdirect the police. I'm suggesting that he seized the opportunity to take advantage of prejudice wherever it was convenient to do so.

There is little if any continuity in the behavior I see you propose for Jack the Ripper Ben....partly because you are willing to accept the Canonical Group or more than 5 victims

Which, if you take the trouble to read up on other serial cases and the experts who have decades of experience in studying them, you'll find to be a pretty sensible acceptance. Better by far that trying too fine-tune a serial killer's MO to an unrealistic degree and then claiming that he couldn't have been responsible for any others. That isn't remotely indicative of a lack of "continuity in the behaviour that I propose for JTR". I find that an incredibly strange and difficult-to-justify observation.

If he wrote the GSG and it was misdirection...you can safely bet where it was written wasnt on his route home

Errrrr...no.

We can "safely bet" nothing of the kind. I've never suggested that Jew-implicating was his overriding incentive; only that he sought to make the best of any opportunities that presented themselves. Jewish hotspots weren't exactly difficult to find, so he hardly needed to take a detour to get to one. The chances of coming across such an enclave en route home was statistically very high.

but I think that in your search to explain Hutchinson in terms of his possible guilt, youre putting out and justifying concepts you wouldnt accept from me or anyone else.

I don't need to justify the concept, since it's obviously plausible, and if I heard a similar argument advanced by anyone else in favour of another suspect, I wouldn't fault them for it. It is perfectly possible that the killer took advantage of popular prejudice - no complicated shinnigans involved in such a basic premise.

[perrymason]

Hi Malcolm,

I agree totally that the suspects and many of the posts are based almost exclusively on extensions of thought and circumstantial evidence...not on related physical evidence or facts. Im not one to cast aspersions on logical extensions or creative thinking...as Im sure Ben knows....I do that myself all the time...but I like to think that each leap I make in that manner is based upon some factual foothold first..something clearly in evidence.

For example I dont believe Mary left her room after arriving home with Blotchy. Because there are no accredited courtyard witnesses that saw or heard that event if it occurred....nor did anyone hear or see the return that must logically have taken place as a result.

People speculate that she did anyway all the time regardless of the known facts, often to support Hutchinson's already discreditted remarks, or to enhance the possibility that Mary met her killer while she too was out soliciting on the street....like it is assumed all 4 others were. Most dont bug me.....the ones that are speculating she went out because she had some unrecorded fear of imminent eviction do.

The point for me is that in terms of "accepted as truth" evidence that was collected or submitted regarding that night, Mary and that room,... there is no foundation for that speculation found in evidence, in her friends or lovers remarks about her, or in physical evidence that is found in her room.

Just like,... in my opinion,... at this point all we can safely suggest regarding Hutchinson is that his story was odd, his sighting was disbelieved, and his semi-official role in the proceedings ends very quickly. Fair speculation might be that since his Astrakan Man is probably a fictional character, his choosing a Jewish man might reveal his own antisemitic attitudes. Suggesting that ties in with what may be antisemitic overtones in a chalk message near Ripper crime evidence is a little too far along the road.

Not only is Hutch unconnected on paper to any other Ripper crime or night, its not even proven that the Ripper killer wrote the GSG himself....or that its meaning isnt pro-Jew.

Best regards.

[perrymason]

In fairness I should add that in Bens case....I hope you wont mind me speaking for you on this matter Ben.....he is looking at a possible connection that involves a man named Hutchinson but who is actually a known individual in Marys life under another name....in which case deflecting suspicion wouldnt be valuable, it would be essential.

Just so you know I do understand some of the variables here.

Cheers all.

[Malcolm X]

Hi Malcolm,

I agree totally that the suspects and many of the posts are based almost exclusively on extensions of thought and circumstantial evidence...not on related physical evidence or facts. Im not one to cast aspersions on logical extensions or creative thinking...as Im sure Ben knows....I do that myself all the time...but I like to think that each leap I make in that manner is based upon some factual foothold first..something clearly in evidence.

For example I dont believe Mary left her room after arriving home with Blotchy. Because there are no accredited courtyard witnesses that saw or heard that event if it occurred....nor did anyone hear or see the return that must logically have taken place as a result.

People speculate that she did anyway all the time regardless of the known facts, often to support Hutchinson's already discreditted remarks, or to enhance the possibility that Mary met her killer while she too was out soliciting on the street....like it is assumed all 4 others were. Most dont bug me.....the ones that are speculating she went out because she had some unrecorded fear of imminent eviction do.

The point for me is that in terms of "accepted as truth" evidence that was collected or submitted regarding that night, Mary and that room,... there is no foundation for that speculation found in evidence, in her friends or lovers remarks about her, or in physical evidence that is found in her room.

Just like,... in my opinion,... at this point all we can safely suggest regarding Hutchinson is that his story was odd, his sighting was disbelieved, and his semi-official role in the proceedings ends very quickly. Fair speculation might be that since his Astrakan Man is probably a fictional character, his choosing a Jewish man might reveal his own antisemitic attitudes. Suggesting that ties in with what may be antisemitic overtones in a chalk message near Ripper crime evidence is a little too far along the road.

Not only is Hutch unconnected on paper to any other Ripper crime or night, its not even proven that the Ripper killer wrote the GSG himself....or that its meaning isnt pro-Jew.

Best regards.

yes i agree with most of this, there is no evidence to implicate Hutchinson, but that is also true of all suspects... even Blotchy, because he might have left MARY'S an innocent man later on, but not seen doing so...

but believing that Mary never went out again ( like you) focuses my attention back on BLOTCHY/HUTCH, it really is as simple as this.

most likely killer is Blotchy, simply because i dont think the ripper would've gone to the police; it's the last thing he'd do... it's too far fetched, life isn't as complicated as this... this seems like a Joe Average local whose a real sicko..i'm was just mentioning with thread, an alternate theory that's all.

yes HUTCH could have been a known friend of Mary's, but if so; it's very risky going to the police as HUTCH... because anybody that knew KELLY well could recognise him, not only from the inquest; but also from the papers... unless he knew her, before Dorset st, this could implicate Fleming...who knows!

in addition and the most important of all, HUTCH's signatures match.... all 3 of them, so with all respect to Ben, this rules out any imposter.

BEN and i were huge Hutchinson posters a few years ago, it was us two that started all these H threads, we went crazy back then ... i wasn't called MALCOLM X back then either, i had to re-register recently; i had over 2 000 posts, but i'm not as active nowadays; not as intense.

so, it looks like it really is either HUTCH or Blotchy... whoever the hell he is

we need to trace Blotchy ............ flipping heck! i will open a new thread soon, but first i must take a look at all the main suspects... do a little bit of homework again, because like when i took my ``O levels`` all those years ago, i've forgotten far more than i ever learnt!

[Malcolm X]

Hi Malcolm,

I

Not only is Hutch unconnected on paper to any other Ripper crime or night, its not even proven that the Ripper killer wrote the GSG himself....or that its meaning isnt pro-Jew.

Best regards.

be careful of this, because no other suspect is directly connected to the ripper either, and in addition, the ripper could've written GSG and it could be anti-semetic... see what i mean, all of this is just a confusing mess

the trouble is, all we have is speculation... we having nothing else; even so, some is more realistic than others

[perrymason]

Hi Mal,

Sorry late to comment but I liked both posts, and I and Ben have discussed Flem Hutchinson, and Hutch Fleming a bit since I came here too.

But I just invented names I like for the various characterizations of The Jack the Ripper the Canonical Group forms.....theres Mr I. M. Craven Cutten who kills Mary,.... theres Mr Slice N Dash that kills Liz Stride, and there is Mr Hans Inside...who kills the women who all have their abdomens probed, and handles the things he takes out.

I dont see that we need to have 3 different personnas to explain 1 Ripper killer....and Mr Hans Inside just leaves a piece of cloth in an alley where Jewish people live and has some anti-semitic values hoisted on him as a result?

Mr Slice N Dash may be Jewish for all we know...if he was from that club, almost certainly.

Hutchinsons fake Astrakan Man in all practicality suggests he was a antisemite...but not Craven Cutten.

Best regards

[Sam Flynn]

In case you missed it, Mike, there was more than a hint of "Hans Inside" with Kelly - in fact, more "Inside" than in his previous three, and much more HANDling, too.

[perrymason]

In case you missed it, Mike, there was more than a hint of "Hans Inside" with Kelly - in fact, more "Inside" than in his previous three, and much more HANDling, too.

Thats why she is a potential Gareth, I know, her killer wasnt adverse to acts most killers would be....but thread wise, all Hans Inside did that has any link to Jews is he left a piece of bloody apron near a Jewish housing complex, and was seen by Jews picking up Kate. If Slice N Dash killed Liz, he is possibly a Jew himself and maybe from that club, and with Hans blamed for Liz by the cries of the club members, Slice and the Club "will not be blamed for nothing".

I dont see any tie in Marys murder to antisemitism other than in the story given by a man who is disbelieved by the same people who believed him 72 hours earlier.

Cheers Sam

[Sam Flynn]

I don't see any antisemitism in any of the C5 murders, Mike. As I've mentioned before, the alleged "proximity" of the Imperial Club is tenuous in the extreme, and it's hardly surprising that three Jews walked past Catherine Eddowes in what was an area with a large Jewish population. If Lawende et al had been Bantu warriors or Eskimos, we might be onto something. As it is, their passing by was no more remarkable than a walk-past by three Chinese gentlemen in Chinatown, and the proximity of Jewish premises no more unusual than the proximity of Pekinese Restaurants under similar circumstances.

[Malcolm X]

hi Perrymason/ Sam

we had a few years ago, a theory that there were two serial killers operating at the same time in this locality, but not working together... it was one of my crazy theories, i got quite a bit of stick over it

but it doesn't seem so crazy now, this other lunatic killed more than the ripper, but of course, he wasn't interested in the mutilations... he was responsible for many of those after Kelly too....

there's something not right during these few years, because there were little or no murders before or after this time period ( we researched this ), a careless random killer that varied his M.O slightly...maybe, maybe not!....

[Ben]

Hi Mike,

Not only is Hutch unconnected on paper to any other Ripper crime or night, its not even proven that the Ripper killer wrote the GSG himself....or that its meaning isnt pro-Jew

It would be pretty astonishing to find a connection between any given suspect and more than one ripper crime. Hutchinson aside, I consider it very significant that both double event murders were committed in close proxmiity to two Jewish clubs and one synagogue, not to mention the location of the apron and, if he wrote it, the GSG. I don't want to copy huge chunks from the thread I provided a link to earlier, but suffice to say I'm not alone in recognising the merit in the suggestion that the killer sought to deflect suspicion in a Jewish direction, and that there are strong indications of this from the double event in particular.

Hutchinson's subsequent attempts to cast aspertions in the direction of a Jewish-looking man unquestionably conform to that pattern. That doesn't mean that any "anti-semitism" is involved, but it might well imply that the ripper sought to make the most of popular prejudice.

[Malcolm X]

Hi Mike,



It would be pretty astonishing to find a connection between any given suspect and more than one ripper crime. Hutchinson aside, I consider it very significant that both double event murders were committed in close proxmiity to two Jewish clubs and one synagogue, not to mention the location of the apron and, if he wrote it, the GSG. I don't want to copy huge chunks from the thread I provided a link to earlier, but suffice to say I'm not alone in recognising the merit in the suggestion that the killer sought to deflect suspicion in a Jewish direction, and that there are strong indications of this from the double event in particular.

Hutchinson's subsequent attempts to cast aspertions in the direction of a Jewish-looking man unquestionably conform to that pattern. That doesn't mean that any "anti-semitism" is involved, but it might well imply that the ripper sought to make the most of popular prejudice.

as you know Ben i agree with you 100%, but at best all we can say is that HUTCH looks highly suspicious, because BLOTCHY still concerns me; very much so

[perrymason]

Youve never had an argument from me that the interpretation of some of the events of the night of the Double Event is by some, antisemitic in nature and perhaps intentionally so, but If Jack didnt kill Liz then that is a greatly diminished possibility, because nothing about Kates murder has any connection to Judaism other than some witnesses to Kate and a Sailor, and the Jewish population adjacent to the piece of apron left behind.

Liz is seen by a Jew, outside a piece of Jewish private property that houses Jewish Socialists that hold meetings for hundreds of other Jewish socialists, and is found by the Club Steward a Jew, and soon after, is surrounded by many other Jews from that Club.

If any murder that night had actual Jewish participants and property as key elements and the focal points of the investigation, it wasnt Kates.

Her murderer is being blended into this antisemitism theorizing based... at this point...., on his placement of some cloth. And Hutch is a vehicle for that kind of theorizing based....at this point... on the fact he invents a Jewish man as a suspect.

My best regards as always friend.

[Ben]

Hi Mike,

Again, I don't see anti-semitism as an over-riding agenda here so much as Jew-implicating. You can take advantage of a scapegoat without harbouring any deep-seated ill-will towards the scapegoat itself. The connections to the Jewish angle cannot be gainsaid, and to reiterate Sugden's observation:

"...Martin Friedland's suggestion that the murders were carefully contrived to throw as much suspicion as possible on the Jewish community deserves better than it has received by modern commentators. The murder of Elizabeth Stride next to the International Working Men's Education Club, the apparent hailing of an accomplice by the name "Lipski", the murder of Kate Eddowes close to another club (The Imperial) frequented by Jews, and the message "The Juwes are the men that will not be blamed for nothing" chalked in the entry of a house of Jewish tenements - these signify little by themselves but, taken together, begin to a make a persuasive case"

Best wishes as always, mate.

Ben