Anti-semetism and Mary Kelly

[Ben]

Hi Mike,

Just for clarification, I don't believe the murderer himself was Jewish, nor do I believe that he harboured any anti-semitic grudges himself. I do believe that he may have taken steps, wherever an opportnity presented itself, to ensure that the public suspicion remained Jew-focussed.

Cheers,

Ben

[Roy Corduroy]

Hi everyone,

Ben, thank you for the reply and I agree with everything you said. It could have happened a number of different ways. But if the link to anti-semitism is Hutch and his statement of a foreigner, then by golly, this is a 100% bonafide Hutch thead.

I could just as easily start a thread titled Misdirection and show how Joe Silver, the rootless psychopath who abused his own people, may have used deception in his murder spree. That would be a suspect thread.

Or I could start a thread titled Upholstery Tool and surmise such a tool may have been used in the murders, and that James Kelly was an upholsterer by trade. A suspect thread.

And Michael, again, if suspicions are cast on the IWEC club members, then by all means, rev up a suspect thread on them. Put the pedal to the metal.

Roy

[perrymason]

Hi Mike,

Just for clarification, I don't believe the murderer himself was Jewish, nor do I believe that he harboured any anti-semitic grudges himself. I do believe that he may have taken steps, wherever an opportnity presented itself, to ensure that the public suspicion remained Jew-focussed.

Cheers,

Ben

Hi Ben,

I think thats a fair position based on actual evidence,....my only change.. based on my perceptions... to that would be that I suspect the GSG was written by the Mitre Square killer to properly assign blame for Liz Stride to the Jews at that club...not to hint at Jewish involvement in acts that the Ripper didnt commit.

All the best Ben.

[Malcolm X]

And I don't understand or buy into that premise.

Hutchison's statement is shaped by his worldview. The victorian music hall villain, the prejudices against foreigners. This is exactly one thing. Him and his statement. There is nothing else in the Kelly murder that qualifies as anti-semitism. (AS)

But somehow a conection is attempted between AS with other things. First of all, Liz Stride had her throat slit and was left to die in a dark "yard." In England, a "yard" is an enclosed place between structures. The kind of place this serial killer favored. The fact that there was a revolutionary workingmen's club next door is a coincidence. It only shows that this happened in a working class area, with some immigrants located there.

The grafitto mentions Jews. That is one thing. It connects to the Eddowes apron. It doesn't connect to Mary Kelly.

The police were concerned about AS and took steps to control. These are know facts.

Mary Kelly & AS is a non-starter. And that's not meant as a put- down, Malcom, I'm just giving my opinion. It seems just another backdoor way to discuss Hutch in General Discussion. Aren't there already like loads of Hutch threads? Under, what, Suspects, Witnesses?

But having said that, carry on please.

Roy

no not at all, Eddowes and Kelly are almost definitely both ripper victims, they're so similar, look at the face mutilations, the abdominal mutilations, etc, the Kelly murder is far more hideous because he was inside/ plenty of time etc..........as for Stride, well it's very odd that we have Eddowes murdered soon after, and an anti-semetic message.... which would be best placed at Dutfields yard.

dont you find it strange that Dutfields yard is a jewish locality and yet the message ended up in Ghoulston st... The ripper chose a Jewish location to kill in advance, but was disturbed at the Stride murder, so he went in search of another victim, killed her; then linked the two murders via the anti-semetic graffiti.......which was originally intended for Dutfields.

many say Stride was not a ripper victim, because we have no mutilations; but she has the classic cut throat, plus the killer was waiting for her blood to drain out before starting his ghastly mutilations anyway... at this exact time, he heard a cart comming along on the cobblestones, this would have made one hell of a noise, so he legged it and went in search of another victim..

what i'm saying is both Eddowes and Kelly are Ripper victims, but we have nothing anti-semetic at Mary's murder site, this is most odd; because if my theory is right ( might of course not be) then the Ripper was starting an anti-semetic hate crusade...trying to create rioting on the streets, a rabel rouser!

the anti-semetism and loads of it, came from Hutchinson a few days later... now is this pure coincidence, well; to me it's highly suspicious.

[Malcolm X]

Hi Ben,

I think thats a fair position based on actual evidence,....my only change.. based on my perceptions... to that would be that I suspect the GSG was written by the Mitre Square killer to properly assign blame for Liz Stride to the Jews at that club...not to hint at Jewish involvement in acts that the Ripper didnt commit.

All the best Ben.

yes this could be true as well, but what this does; is to help link the Stride murder to Eddowes... regardless of what the Ripper actually meant...

this is just a theory, but to me it makes sene

[perrymason]

yes this could be true as well, but what this does; is to help link the Stride murder to Eddowes... regardless of what the Ripper actually meant...

this is just a theory, but to me it makes sene

Hi Malcolm,

In my post.. the one you responded to, the GSG in the scenario I proposed would be intended to distance the Mitre Square murderer from the Stride murder, not link him to it. The true meaning of the phrase in the authors mind would dictate which is more likely the case.

I think that there is anti-semitism evident in the records....I just dont see the Ripper victims other than Stride having much if anything to do with Jews in particular. I think things like a Senior Policeman suggesting "it was a Polish Jew"....as an "ascertained fact" is where you find anti-semitic overtones....because there is no evidence that I can see for that remark....other than many Jews were living in the East End at the time, some being from Poland.

Cheers Malcolm.

[Ben]

An interesting extract from The Complete History of Jack the Ripper, for what it's worth:

"...Martin Friedland's suggestion that the murders were carefully contrived to throw as much suspicion as possible on the Jewish community deserves better than it has received by modern commentators. The murder of Elizabeth Stride next to the International Working Men's Education Club, the apparent hailing of an accomplice by the name "Lipski", the murder of Kate Eddowes close to another club (The Imperial) frequented by Jews, and the message "The Juwes are the men that will not be blamed for nothing" chalked in the entry of a house of Jewish tenements - these signify little by themselves but, taken together, begin to a make a persuasive case"

Here's a link to a previous discussion on this theme:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=336&highlight=psychosis

[perrymason]

An interesting extract from The Complete History of Jack the Ripper, for what it's worth:

"...Martin Friedland's suggestion that the murders were carefully contrived to throw as much suspicion as possible on the Jewish community deserves better than it has received by modern commentators. The murder of Elizabeth Stride next to the International Working Men's Education Club, the apparent hailing of an accomplice by the name "Lipski", the murder of Kate Eddowes close to another club (The Imperial) frequented by Jews, and the message "The Juwes are the men that will not be blamed for nothing" chalked in the entry of a house of Jewish tenements - these signify little by themselves but, taken together, begin to a make a persuasive case"

Here's a link to a previous discussion on this theme:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread...ight=psychosis

That is a support for your position Ben, but only for the 2 Ripper murders on the same night...the same ones that I suggest are the only ones with overt Jewish influences and overtones. If Jack the Ripper killed at least the Canonical Group on 4 separate evenings, and he wanted Jews blamed for acts...then why do we see a concerted effort to blame Jews and the potential for the killers antisemitism on only one night?

I see the writing as a suggestion Jews were evading blame for something they actually did, you and the writer above see a potential for the author blaming the Jews...... without any provocation.

One is a man telling the authorities in the message that he feels that Jews have something they are guilty of but are escaping Blame for...the other suggests that the man is an anti-Semite and is blaming Jews based on that prejudice alone.

I feel based only on the GSG, that the author feels Jews are to blame for something that took place that night that he...or someone else, is ...or more accurately "will"... be blamed for.

Cheers Ben

[Roy Corduroy]

Ben, thank you for the Sugden extract, and yes I understand your position exactly. A smart killer taking advantage of prejudice to leave false clues and throw the investigation off his trail. And if the link to this is through the Kelly murder and Hutch's statement of a foreigner, then this is, in every way, every day, a Hutch thread. A dedicated, directed one.

Roy

[Ben]

Fair enough, Roy. I see your point. Hutchwards!

Hi Mike,

then why do we see a concerted effort to blame Jews and the potential for the killers antisemitism on only one night?

My view is that he sought to take advantage of popular scapegoating when it became most apparent that the Jews were in the frame, and that perception was at it's peak around the time of the Hanbury Street murder, courtesy of the "Leather Apron" scare. If, in addition to all that, a gentile ripper had been comforted by the fact that the most recent eyewitness (Liz Long) had implicated a foreigner, I can easily imagine the killer taking steps thereafter to ensure that that particular cow was well and truly milked.

Malcolm's observation was that it's possible that the killer continued the Jew-implicating theme in the wake of the Kelly murder.

All the best,
Ben

[perrymason]

Ben, thank you for the Sugden extract, and yes I understand your position exactly. A smart killer taking advantage of prejudice to leave false clues and throw the investigation off his trail. And if the link to this is through the Kelly murder and Hutch's statement of a foreigner, then this is, in every way, every day, a Hutch thread. A dedicated, directed one.

Roy

Ok, so I see the premise here,....Hutch insinuating a Jew into the mix makes him, if Marys killer, an anti-semite or someone wanting Jews blamed for the murders. If he is also the guy who leaves the GSG...then you have 2 examples. I see.

The only problems of course are that there is no evidence that links Marys killer to Kates or Liz's aside from opinion...there is no Jew that is believed to be seen last with Mary Kelly even though Hutchinson tried to insert one for a few days,... Blotchy is the last man and we dont know he was Jewish, we cant be sure the man that left the apron piece...likely the man they called Jack, wrote the GSG at all, and there is the opinion of many Police that they believed a Jew was responsible for the murders in the first place. Which then makes antisemitic writing confusing.

All totaled... there is no evidence that anything related to the murders themselves has anything to do with Jewish people aside from police opinion and a possible translation of the GSG....and an opinion that Hutchinson's Astrakan Man may have been attempts at antisemitic misdirection.

Im always amazed when people accept the convoluted, unsupported answers, before the face value ones.

I know Ben is looking for ways to explain Hutchinson from a potential culpability perspective....but this is to me getting a little to far on the unstable side of the fence to make that work.

Hutch was believed to have lied to the police....thats his remarkable contribution to the events. Some think hes also Wideawake....which makes only his "loitering" part of his story at least something that may have corroboration. If anyone imagines that he actually had a role in Marys death or in any of the other Ripper murders...at this point in time, they do that with only imagination as a foundation or platform.

Hutchinson told a story that wasnt believed by the authorities. That may be the extent of his involvement,.....just like Packers.

Best regards all.

[perrymason]

Ben and Roy....

The only statement you could make regarding Hutchinson and antisemitism at this time is that he may have demonstrated his when he fabricated a Jewish suspect seen with Mary. None of that ties in with any other evidence that may suggest antisemitism as well.,...and thats the opinion of some of the Police of a Jewish killer, and the GSG, based on its actual meaning...which we dont know....and if written by Kates killer...which we dont know.

Best regards gents.

[Ben]

Hi Mike,

The only problems of course are that there is no evidence that links Marys killer to Kates or Liz's aside from opinion

Blimey, if that's the only problem, I'm more confident in the validity of this particular scenario than ever. If you wish to attribute Kelly, Eddowes and Stride to three different killers, you're more than welcome to do so, but I tend to disregard that as a chink in the armour of Mal's suggestion.

All totaled... there is no evidence that anything related to the murders themselves has anything to do with Jewish people

Well, you know that's not true, since you've also highlighted the Jewish associations with the double event murders. Irrepsective of whichever light you view Hutchinson in - from a serial killer to a paragon or truthful violin-playing virtue - his description of a man of Jewish appearance unquestionably qualifies as something that "has to do with Jewish people".

Im always amazed when people accept the convoluted, unsupported answers, before the face value ones.

Like Tumblety sending someone to embark on a uterus-collecting spree...

If anyone imagines that he actually had a role in Marys death or in any of the other Ripper murders...at this point in time, they do that with only imagination as a foundation or platform.

It requires imagination to assign any one invididual the mantle of Jack the Ripper, but in Hutchinson's case, I'd argue that a good deal less is required. It doesn't take a huge leap of faith to infer that an individual who may have lied about his behaviour near a crime scene may have been the murderer, irrespective of the fact that he may not be the correct answer.

None of that ties in with any other evidence that may suggest antisemitism

Though it ties in very nicely indeed with other evidence that may suggest the implication of the Jewish community, regardless of whether anti-semitism was a motive or not.

Best regards,
Ben

[Malcolm X]

Ben and Roy....

The only statement you could make regarding Hutchinson and antisemitism at this time is that he may have demonstrated his when he fabricated a Jewish suspect seen with Mary. None of that ties in with any other evidence that may suggest antisemitism as well.,...and thats the opinion of some of the Police of a Jewish killer, and the GSG, based on its actual meaning...which we dont know....and if written by Kates killer...which we dont know.

Best regards gents.

it depends how you interpret what he's said, because i intrepret this as anti-semetic and what HUTCH has said later too, very much so........ this was years before i was suspicious of Hutchinson.

there he was searching through Petticoat Lane with the police for a Jewish suspect, now if you did the same nowadays; this might cause a race riot on the streets... because many people would interpret his actions/what the papers said etc; as being racial discrimination..i would certainly find it offensive.

why doesn't Hutch blame an Irishman or even a local Brit, after all; nearly all the suspect descriptions seem to match a local ``Joe Average``..... but no, he plays the anti-semetic card instead ...or, he hints at it a little bit too much.... and of course, it is also convenient for him to mention a LA DE DA Jew; because it draws attention away from a local suspect............MAYBE HIM!

what Ben sais below is right, Hutch is actually more guilty looking than nearly all the top ripper suspects... only Blotchy face is as guilty.

in addition, if Mary Cox's description of BLOTCHY is accurate, then this rules out nearly every top suspect.... 5ft 5'' high, but is it accurate?..it'll be pretty close... she walked right past him!

Hutch isn't killing because he's Anti-semetic only, please dont get this wrong in my theory, he's killing mainly because he enjoys it.

In addition, many people even today are very anti-semetc.. the Jews are very unpopular, but i dont think we want to discuss this here; but it is worth mentioning

i quote:- ``Hutchinson told a story that wasnt believed by the authorities``... yes quite true he lied, but why he lied is either one of two reasons.

[perrymason]

Hi again Ben,

Just to address one point, I have far less issue suggesting the killer of some the Canonicals were killed for their uterus than I would suggesting The Ripper wanted to implicate Jews as evidenced by Astrakan Man offered by Hutchinson....who happened to be the killer of Kate and Liz and the author of the GSG too. At least my perspective would have actual physical evidence and medical opinion that supports my claim. Fair is fair.

As you wisely did, you pointed out that the ONLY night that anything resembling Jewish involvement in Ripper investigations was the Double Event night. We also have no idea why Hutchinson offered a Jewish businessman as his suspect.....I would go so far as to say that might be anti-semitism expressed on his part....but since his story is discreditted anyway, why worry about his motivations for coming forward. He might just be the kook he appears to be, and have no connection to Mary Kelly at all...living or dead. For me, he isnt at all a compelling and suspicious figure....unless he was Wideawake Man, which is speculation.

On the Double Event, if you want to imagine that the killer from Mitre Square killed both women that night...thats fair, lots do. If you want to imagine he left the apron piece in Goulston because it was on his route home, you can do so. But if you then want to imagine he writes the GSG while there specifically to misdirect the police towards a Jewish suspect....by the location and the phrase......then why would you imagine the route the apron is found on as relates to Mitre Square isnt complete misdirection as well? Isnt it just as likely in that scenario that he placed the apron at that place to misdirect a search as well based on your theory?

He leaves a murder scene clue on his way to his own home, but leaves a note misdirecting suspicion about the killer?

If I buy your suggestion that the GSG was written by Jack after killing two women to misdirect the suspicion for the killings onto the Jews...it is not logical that he would do so leaving it somewhere on a direct line between the murder scene and his real home. If he is seeking misdirection towards Jews, that very Jewish location must be considered part of that misdirection ruse....which then makes the delay in the appearance of the apron part of a contrived misdirection episode....and suggests that if anything, he would probably have lived in the opposite direction of where he was "misleading" the police with the apron. Which probably then would put his actual home North, West or South of Mitre Square, not North East from it. Anywhere that he could physically walk to and return from in the time it takes for the apron to be discovered.

If he leads them to an entrenched Jewish enclave and hints that they were responsible as misdirection.....(an interpretation of the GSG that is the opposite of its actual wording),.. then it would naturally follow he doesnt live there himself.

There is little if any continuity in the behavior I see you propose for Jack the Ripper Ben....partly because you are willing to accept the Canonical Group or more than 5 victims, even though only 3 of the 5 have physical evidence matches with the perceived access/attack/kill/postmortem and abdominal mutilations ....but not less than the Canon....and partly because you suggest that he is a poor local man.....many of which were in fact Jewish,... but that this one even if Jewish is an anti-semite who misdirects police with chalk messages accusing Jews very vaguely while dropping an apron piece, on his way from murdering, on his way home.

If he wrote the GSG and it was misdirection...you can safely bet where it was written wasnt on his route home, but somewhere he associated with primarily Jewish residents. Please dont ask that I accept he misdirects with chalk messages but not the physical evidence.

I know you to be a solid researcher and knowledgeable man on the times and the cases themselves, and in general.....but I think that in your search to explain Hutchinson in terms of his possible guilt, youre putting out and justifying concepts you wouldnt accept from me or anyone else.

All the best my friend.