Paranoid Schizophrenia

[Ashkenaz]

Paranoid schizophrenia does not seem to preclude a high degree of cunning, quite the contrary.

A friend of mine suffers from this. Medicated, you would never guess. Should she stop taking the meds, the illness appears, and it is perfectly clear that she is mentally ill.

My point is this, in 1888, there was no medication for this condition. Anyone suffering from this illness then, would be identified immediately as someone who is "mad".

Napper and Sutcliffe I'm guessing were medicated for the condition- that is, if they really did have the condition. Sutcliffe at least, has been charged with faking the illness.

I'm suggesting that jtr did not have this illness. If he had, it would have been obvious to his peers that he was mad/raving/unstable. I have seen an unmediated paranoid schizophrenic. No sex worker would ever have gone down a dark alley with jtr if he had this condition then.

JTR was polite, plausible,friendly and convincing. He completely disarmed his victims. I do not believe he was suffering from PS. Unless of course, suffers go through periods of wellness and illness, in the same way, as those suffering biopolar disorder.

[Mitch Rowe]

What - if either - better fits JTR: a paranoid schizophrenic or someone with antisocial personality disorder (e.g., Ted Bundy)?

Not schizophrenia. Like Ashkenaz said. The girls would not have went with JTR if he suffered from schizophrenia. JTR most likely didnt suffer from a mental illness. Or at least anything severe.

[Sara]

A friend of mine suffers from this. Medicated, you would never guess. Should she stop taking the meds, the illness appears, and it is perfectly clear that she is mentally ill.........

I'm suggesting that jtr did not have this illness. If he had, it would have been obvious to his peers that he was mad/raving/unstable. I have seen an unmediated paranoid schizophrenic. No sex worker would ever have gone down a dark alley with jtr if he had this condition then.

JTR was polite, plausible,friendly and convincing. He completely disarmed his victims. I do not believe he was suffering from PS. Unless of course, suffers go through periods of wellness and illness, in the same way, as those suffering biopolar disorder.

I too have at least one friend with this illness - also a woman. The 'visibility' and severity of her symptoms do indeed vary widely - sometimes she needs to be hospitalised and sometimes she is perfectly "polite, plausible, friendly and convincing". In all states, but especially in the run-up to an 'acute' phase, she is pretty manipulative.

I've also known several people suffering from bi-polar syndrome. When in the 'manic' state they often become extremely paranoid, and violent both verbally and physically. When in remission they may appear perfectly normal, and scarcely able to remember the manic phases (although they do remember the depressive ones in more detail). When the manic phase starts to kick in, they still seem very plausible to anyone who doesn;t know them very well.

Some of these mental states are not so easily separated as physchiatrists would have you believe!

Mitch Rowe: I think you have misunderstood my post, I meant that outside an acute phase these sufferers can be very cunning and manipulative. There is every chance they are capable of planning attacks, even if they don't go totally out of control until the illness becomes acute.

Schizophrenia like most mental illness varies in severity in its progression, just as most physical illness do. It's true that in the LVP its progression to permanent acute phase was no doubt much faster than in ours due to lack of suitable medication

[Ashkenaz]

I too have at least one friend with this illness - also a woman. The 'visibility' and severity of her symptoms do indeed vary widely - sometimes she needs to be hospitalised and sometimes she is perfectly "polite, plausible, friendly and convincing". In all states, but especially in the run-up to an 'acute' phase, she is pretty manipulative.

I've also known several people suffering from bi-polar syndrome. When in the 'manic' state they often become extremely paranoid, and violent both verbally and physically. When in remission they may appear perfectly normal, and scarcely able to remember the manic phases (although they do remember the depressive ones in more detail). When the manic phase starts to kick in, they still seem very plausible to anyone who doesn;t know them very well.

Some of these mental states are not so easily separated as physchiatrists would have you believe!

Mitch Rowe: I think you have misunderstood my post, I meant that outside an acute phase these sufferers can be very cunning and manipulative. There is every chance they are capable of planning attacks, even if they don't go totally out of control until the illness becomes acute.

Schizophrenia like most mental illness varies in severity in its progression, just as most physical illness do. It's true that in the LVP its progression to permanent acute phase was no doubt much faster than in ours due to lack of suitable medication

Hi Sara
Clearly you know more about this condition than I do. Do you believe that it is possible for an unmedicated schizophrenic to appear to be sane/rational/friendly/polite/plausible ? IE, could jtr have had this condition ?

[FrankO]

JTR was polite, plausible,friendly and convincing. He completely disarmed his victims.

Hi Ashkenaz,

I don't think we can be sure of that. The most we can say, is that the Ripper didn't act too suspiciously or oddly right until the very moment that he launched his initial attack. We should remember that the prostitutes of the day would be inclined to go with any man who didn't act too suspiciously, as long as he showed them the money. As far as I'm concerned, the Ripper may very well have been a man who (without manipulating/acting) was just looking and acting a bit timid.

All the best,
Frank

[Sara]

Hi Sara
Clearly you know more about this condition than I do. Do you believe that it is possible for an unmedicated schizophrenic to appear to be sane/rational/friendly/polite/plausible ? IE, could jtr have had this condition ?

I'm no specialist and most of my info is anecdotal or from personal experience - I've no doubt you can get more informed opinion by gooling. My own experience of those with such mental conditons - I moved in very arty circles earlier in my life and it's no secret that artists and writers tend to suffer from varyingly 'abnormal' mental states! - is that they pass in and out of acute phases, earlier in the disease at least, so imo it might be poss for JtR to have suffered from this or a similar condition

I dontl think JtR or anyone else picking up a streetwalker would have needed to dissemble sanity for very long - these transactiosn were pretty brief!

[Sara]

PS It was much easier to get people committed to mental asylums in those days than it is now to get them 'sectioned', so I think I'm right in saying that it would have been more likely in those days that people went in and out of asylums fairly regularly; in the case of the middle classes this would no doubt have been hushed up, even to the extent of using false names

[diana]

Here's another account of a murder committed by a paranoid schizophrenic. Scroll and read pages #1 and 2.

http://books.google.com/books?id=sXBnvC8Zr1YC&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=%22Paranoid+Schizophrenia%22+homicide&source=web&ots=hDBTegIyWy&sig=OHGS2kk0TWKmTypv_31P2fWas94&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result#PPA1,M1

[diana]

No. 4

Here's a fourth paranoid schizophrenic who engaged in post mortem mutilations.

http://books.google.com/books?id=YQlS59Pv35oC&pg=PA160&lpg=PA160&dq=%22paranoid+schizophrenic%22+eviscerated&source=web&ots=ub7yiQs1dB&sig=X9rrdxznOTaod_iF2R8L0oYByGc&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result

[diana]

No#5

and another

http://blogs.whataslacker.com/2008/05/12/amish-murderers-whats-next/

I'm looking for offenders who were diagnosed before they killed in order to eliminate those who might fake being PS to avoid punishment.

[Honor Beckett]

Hello all--

Throwing my admittedly amateur hat into the ring to say I agree with those who doubt that Jack suffered from schizophrenia--it does seem a less likely idea, considering the lack of treatment available in the time period, that he would escape detection, and that he would be functional enough to not draw undue attention to himself. I also have a bit of experience with people afflicted with this condition, and it is true that when medicated one generally won't notice much wrong with them, but unmedicated it is very clear that something is amiss. I tend to believe that Jack might have been somewhere in the antisocial personality disorder/psychopath continuum--it seems well documented that those who are can be highly functional, as well as charming and manipulative, which would only help Jack lure his unfortunates in.

Cheers!
--Honor

[Mitch Rowe]

Mitch Rowe: I think you have misunderstood my post, I meant that outside an acute phase these sufferers can be very cunning and manipulative. There is every chance they are capable of planning attacks, even if they don't go totally out of control until the illness becomes acute.

Im not saying its impossible. Im saying its improbable.

If JTR actually believed in what he was doing. Like it was some kind of Govt mission then he could have had a mental illness.

But for the most part mental illness is a devastating disease wich affects a person in all aspects of their life. JTR still has to feed and clothe himself. Most likely support lodgings. Act normal when everyone is talking about the Ripper. And keep his mouth shut for the rest of his life.

[Mitch Rowe]

Hi Ashkenaz,

I don't think we can be sure of that. The most we can say, is that the Ripper didn't act too suspiciously or oddly right until the very moment that he launched his initial attack. We should remember that the prostitutes of the day would be inclined to go with any man who didn't act too suspiciously, as long as he showed them the money. As far as I'm concerned, the Ripper may very well have been a man who (without manipulating/acting) was just looking and acting a bit timid.

All the best,
Frank

Dont forget that later on as the ripper scare caught hold the girls would have more cautious. I suppose if these women knew the ripper as a previous customer he could have acted a little weird without scaring them off.

[caz]

Mitch Rowe: I think you have misunderstood my post, I meant that outside an acute phase these sufferers can be very cunning and manipulative. There is every chance they are capable of planning attacks, even if they don't go totally out of control until the illness becomes acute.

I'm no specialist and most of my info is anecdotal or from personal experience - I've no doubt you can get more informed opinion by gooling. My own experience of those with such mental conditons - I moved in very arty circles earlier in my life and it's no secret that artists and writers tend to suffer from varyingly 'abnormal' mental states! - is that they pass in and out of acute phases, earlier in the disease at least, so imo it might be poss for JtR to have suffered from this or a similar condition

I dontl think JtR or anyone else picking up a streetwalker would have needed to dissemble sanity for very long - these transactiosn were pretty brief!

Hi Sara,

I think I'm missing something here. Are you saying that Jack could have judged exactly when he was going to 'pass in and out of acute phases' so he could be cunning and manipulative and in control for the initial encounter with each prospective victim, eg on the main thoroughfares like Commercial St or Bishopsgate, and right up until they are alone together and he will have to strike suddenly if he is going to do so at all, and then wallop - he enters his acute phase and becomes manic enough to slit her throat and rip her up?

I could just about see a manic phase being triggered by finding himself alone with an unfortunate, but I can't see it subsiding in accordance with the police beats, or at the first sound of approaching boots, enabling him to leave the scene outwardly calm and collected again, reasonably unbloodied and carrying away his trophies.

That degree of control over one's own mental illness sounds like a contradiction in terms.

Love,

Caz
X

[FrankO]

and another

http://blogs.whataslacker.com/2008/05/12/amish-murderers-whats-next/

I'm looking for offenders who were diagnosed before they killed in order to eliminate those who might fake being PS to avoid punishment.

Hi Diana,

Thanks for those links. If I'm not mistaken, William 'The Mutilator' MacDonald, who killed in Sydney, Australia, during the 1960s, was also diagnosed as a schizophrenic before he started killing, just like Lucian Staniak, alias the Red Spider.

All the best,
Frank