FBI pulls the plug on Colin Wilson

[Ashkenaz]

There wasn't a stab to the vaginal area - there was a stab to the groin. .

The groin is in the vaginal area - for females. Most people would agree with that.

they might have in the past, when psychology was only a few steps removed from fortune-telling, but not so many would agree with such old-hat Freudian interpretations now.

I think that many psychologists would agree that jtr's mutilation of the victims was sexually motivated. You of course, may believe what you wish.

There are probably hundreds of thousand of psychologists in the world. If only 10% of them agreed with me, there would still be many psychologists who agreed with me, which is what I said.

[Ashkenaz]

With respect - there weren't. I don't care which dictionary you're using, but "one or two" does not equal "several".

So, in your opinion, my dictionary's definition of the word "several" is nonsense. Or perhaps you think I am dishonest, and that my dictionary says no such thing.

If you believe the later, I shall be happy to produce an image of the definition my dictionary gives, and post it for you.

I did not say one or two equal several. I said a few equal several, according to my dictionary.

It is the best dictionary I have ever seen, and if new today, would possibly be priced above £25.

[Sam Flynn]

No. A stab injury to the vaginal area may have had sexual symbolism for the killer.

There wasn't a stab to the vaginal area - there was a stab to the groin. Given that the groin covers a wide area, this stab might have been nowhere near the vagina at all. If Brown had meant to say "vagina" he'd have said so - he didn't hold back from mentioning the labia, so I doubt that he was euphemising here.

Many psychologists would agree with that.

...they might have in the past, when psychology was only a few steps removed from fortune-telling, but not so many would agree with such old-hat Freudian interpretations now.

[Sam Flynn]

Certainly there were several injuries to the vaginal area !

With respect - there weren't. I don't care which dictionary you're using, but "one or two" does not equal "several".

"Several" are the wounds inflicted on Catherine Eddowes' face, which outnumbered her thigh-wounds by roughly 6 to 1, and which outnumbered her vaginal wounds by roughly 12 to 1 - and, in the latter figure, I include her cut labium, which was entirely incidental to the flap cut into her thigh.

[Ashkenaz]

Hello Ashkenaz,Certainly NOT "several" injuries to the vaginal area! We have one stab in the groin and one cut below it. .

Certainly there were several injuries to the vaginal area !

Several: a few, a moderate number of persons or things.
Universal English Dictionary
Waverley.

Surely you will agree that two things are a few things, and according to the definition a few things can be several. It follows that two knife injuries can be several injuries.

eading the fuller account of Brown's testimony paints a somewhat different picture:

"There was a stab of about an inch on the left groin. This was done by a pointed instrument. Below this was a cut of three inches going through all tissues making a wound of the peritoneum about the same extent... An inch below the crease of the thigh was a cut extending from the anterior spine of the ilium obliquely down the inner side of the left thigh and separating the left labium, forming a flap of skin up to the groin... There was a flap of skin formed from the right thigh, attaching the right labium, and extending up to the spine of the ilium. The muscles on the right side inserted into the frontal ligaments were cut through."

.

No, a fuller account does not paint a different picture, it paints a fuller picture. Certainly all these other injuries were present. It does not detract from what I said. Namely that there were several knife injuries to the vaginal area.

So, rather than a stabbing attack centred on the vagina, what we actually have is the killer carving two flaps of flesh into the thigh, .

You have already said above that one injury was a stab wound to the groin. To that I would add that the other may also have been a stab injury. But whether it was a stab, a slash a hack - it was certainly another knife injury to the vaginal area.

Even if this weren't the case, "groin" does not mean "vagina", or even "the genitals" in the broadest sense. .

I said the vaginal area, which any one would agree, covers the genitals and groin.

Furthermore, these wounds were evidently inflicted with a slicing, rather than a stabbing, action of the knife,.

The doctor at the inquest said there was a stab injury to the groin (vaginal area). How have you managed to arrive at the injury evidently inflicted with a slicing action ? I am sure the doctor knows a stab injury when he sees one.

so any supposed symbolism of penetrative sex goes out of the window. .

No. A stab injury to the vaginal area may have had sexual symbolism for the killer. Many psychologists would agree with that.

When these thigh-wounds are compared to the rest of Eddowes' mutilations, the idea that the killer was "fixated" on the genital area does not stand up to a moment's scrutiny, either.

I did not say that I thought jtr was fixated on the victims genital area. I said that there were several stab wounds to the vaginal area, which I later modified to several knife injuries to the vaginal are, as we cannot be certain of the injury caused by the wound which was not described as a stab injury by the doctor. I also said that I thought the mutilations were sexually motivated.

[Sam Flynn]

Hello Ashkenaz,

"There was a stab of about an inch on the left groin. This was done by a pointed instrument. Below this was a cut of three inches..."

...Certainly several knife injuries to the vaginal area.

Certainly NOT "several" injuries to the vaginal area! We have one stab in the groin and one cut below it. Also, beware of quoting from the dreaded "decontextualised summaries" sometimes found in the press - reading the fuller account of Brown's testimony paints a somewhat different picture:

"There was a stab of about an inch on the left groin. This was done by a pointed instrument. Below this was a cut of three inches going through all tissues making a wound of the peritoneum about the same extent... An inch below the crease of the thigh was a cut extending from the anterior spine of the ilium obliquely down the inner side of the left thigh and separating the left labium, forming a flap of skin up to the groin... There was a flap of skin formed from the right thigh, attaching the right labium, and extending up to the spine of the ilium. The muscles on the right side inserted into the frontal ligaments were cut through."

So, rather than a stabbing attack centred on the vagina, what we actually have is the killer carving two flaps of flesh into the thigh, starting at the ilium and heading downwards. The single stab-wound to the left groin might have been a slip of the knife, either preparatory to, or during the "carving" of the flap on the left-hand side.

Even if this weren't the case, "groin" does not mean "vagina", or even "the genitals" in the broadest sense. It's true that one of the labia majora was cut through, and the other "attached" to the flap cut from the thigh, but any cut wrought in the manner described would have included the labia in its trajectory.

Furthermore, these wounds were evidently inflicted with a slicing, rather than a stabbing, action of the knife, so any supposed symbolism of penetrative sex goes out of the window. When these thigh-wounds are compared to the rest of Eddowes' mutilations, the idea that the killer was "fixated" on the genital area does not stand up to a moment's scrutiny, either.

[Ashkenaz]

Also, no Ripper victim was stabbed "several" times in the vaginal area

Here are a few lines from Catherine Eddowes inquest.

"There was a stab of about an inch on the left groin. This was done by a pointed instrument. Below this was a cut of three inches going through all tissues making a wound of the peritoneum about the same extent."

So then, one stab wound and another blade injury which could have been a slash or a stab to the vaginal area. Certainly several knife injuries to the vaginal area. The second deep enough to enter the peritoneum.

[Ashkenaz]

Ash, it's a typical male bonding thing to see a knife as a penis.

Do you know what a 'claptrap' is?.

Yes Jack I do, your first quote is a perfect example.

The trouble with blokes like you is you can't make the rare distinction between a sexual act of enjoyment, and a biological process of reproduction..

So now you are saying that jtr's mutilations of these women were a sexual act of enjoyment for him. Thats what I'm saying.

I'm fairly sure you are not saying that jtr's mutilations of these women were biological processes of reproduction. But perhaps you are. Your logic is so confused you might mean anything.

[Moriarty]

Your typical profiler will be a white male aged 25-40. He will tend to profile within his own societal and sexual grouping. While the profiles will tend to differ in many respects, individual profilers will often exhibit what we call a "signature" (something unique to that particular profile....apart from essential inaccuracy). Once a profiler has begun his profiling career he will carry on, undeterred by getting it wrong, until he is prevented from profiling either by incarceration or by death.

[Ashkenaz]

Hello Ash,...personally, I'd see it less as a simulation of the sexual act, and more of an actual stab wound in the genitals. .

You are of course entitled to your opinion. I consider it both.

Also, no Ripper victim was stabbed "several" times in the vaginal area - if anything, the focus seems to have been slightly higher up than that.

I have read that one victim was stabbed several times in the genital area. It was either in one of my books, or perhaps here at this forum. If I find it again I shall refer you to it

Several - A few, a moderate number of.
Universal English Dictionary
Waverley

[Cap'n Jack]

Ash, it's a typical male bonding thing to see a knife as a penis, and thrusting into a woman's parts in some kind of act of sexual finality.
Trouble is all males have a penis - I assume - so where does the knife fit in?
Freudian claptrap is where it fits in.
Do you know what a 'claptrap' is?
The trouble with blokes like you is you can't make the rare distinction between a sexual act of enjoyment, and a biological process of reproduction.
This is exactly the same place that the Whitechaple Murderer found himself, and if one is not in a position to make a distinction between distinct process one seeks to either alienate, confuse or even destroy that distinct process... as if one can tinker with the universe by turning penis into knife.
Wilson would love you. I don't.

[Sam Flynn]

Hello Ash,

Surely you can see this act simulates penetrative sex between men and women...

...personally, I'd see it less as a simulation of the sexual act, and more of an actual stab wound in the genitals. Also, no Ripper victim was stabbed "several" times in the vaginal area - if anything, the focus seems to have been slightly higher up than that.

[Ashkenaz]

And other loons who think that the Whitechapel Murders had a sexual origin.

]

I cant imagine why you choose to insult people who have opinions contrary to your own.

For myself, I am happy to read the ideas,opinions and hypothesis of others regardless of whether I agree with them or not. New ideas bring fresh debate.

I think that the jtr murders were sexually based. JTR did not just attack women. He was clearly interested in the female reproductive organs. He also stabbed at least one victim several times in the vaginal area. Possible more victims were mutilated thus. Surely you can see this act simulates penetrative sex between men and women, and hence has sexual connotations

[The Good Michael]

My favourite bit of profiling?
When several women were raped close to a major railway line, and stations.

Canter: 'the killer works on the railway.'

Five thousand pounds thank you.

It sounds like Casey was just getting his Jones on.

Mike

[DarkPassenger]

My favourite bit of profiling?
When several women were raped close to a major railway line, and stations.

Canter: 'the killer works on the railway.'

Five thousand pounds thank you.

My favourite bit of ripperology?

"Maybe it was a jealous wife taking revenge?"

Profiling may state the obvious a lot, which I agree with, but Ripperology takes the, "we have no evidence otherwise" logic and comes out with complete crap which it can support by saying, "there's no evidence otherwise is there?"

A profiler can say with some confidence that a said offender is likely, based on the types of crimes, choice of victim, (**** the list of stuff profilers utilize is pretty long), to be a certain age, sex, class, race, and can figure out where an offender is likely to live - and a lot of the time the profiles are correct by a large degree. It's not perfect, nothing is, but it's a good start.