Jack or the Zodiac?

[bluecedar]

Lately I've taken a great interest in the Zodiac Killer case, which is America's version of Jack the Ripper--both involve taunting letters, a sinister modus operandi, and are still unsolved. Which in your opinion is the more frightening of the two killers? I vote for the Zodiac. Even though Jack was more savage, the Zodiac in some ways was colder, darker, more brilliant. He killed men as well as women. Like JTR his killings inexplicably stopped after five, though he continued for years to write those frightening letters. Doesn't this prove the Zodiac had a sicker and more dangerous mind?

[sdreid]

I vote for Cleveland Torso. Not on the ballot.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

Doesn't this prove the Zodiac had a sicker and more dangerous mind?

Not quite. That proves the Zodiac set out to be a serial killer, the person responsible for the Jack the Ripper killings never. So I'd say Jack the Ripper was the sickest. The dangerous mind thing is open to debate.

[FutureM.D.]

First and foremost let us remember that we're talking about two entirely differant types of killers. JTR was a disorganized sexual sadist, whereas Zodiac was a highly organized Sociopathic Meglomaniac. Secondly, whereas we know that atleast a majority of Zodiac's correspondance was genuine, almost all scholars consider the ripper letters (with the possible exception of the Lusk letter) to be hoaxes, so trying to assert anything about the mind of Jack the Ripper by the letters is nearly worthless. As far as who is more sick, although both are indiscriminate killers, the method in which the act is done is the most telling part. As cheesy as it sounds take Hannibal Lecter quoting Marcus Aurelius: " Of everything ask what is it in and of itself? What is it's casual nature" Essentially, what need is satisfied by killing? For Zodiac it was the need of power to control another life, ergo it is the death itself and not the method that is important. The complete opposite is true of the Ripper, death is INCIDENTAL, the mutilation, the desexing of the victim to render them supplicant and unthreatening is the goal and the fufillment. So by and by I think the Ripper was infinately more dangerous

[KatBradshaw]

I also have been interested in the Zodiac Killer since I watched the film. I have to say it is really interesting but Jack will always be my killer of choice.

[perrymason]

Hello all,

Its an almost certainty that the Zodiak enjoyed his communications with authorities,... its never been proven Jack wrote a single letter,... Zodiaks range of victims and lack of overtly sexual components in his acts defy the category Sexual Serial Killer, Jacks do not thus far....Zodiak was aware of the forensic tools that would be used to catch him and was cautious to avoid mistepping in those areas, whether the Ripper knew that the police had virtually no scientific means to analyse data on victims or at crime scenes is irrelevant...if he did leave traces they couldnt identify from whom samples came scientifically....Zodiak was known to imitate an authority figure in some of his murders, there is no evidence Jack did....

Theres a million differences, but the main one I think is that Zodiak wanted to be public knowledge, he communicated directly with the press and authorities. Part of his kick was his notariety. There is no evidence to suggest that Jack the Ripper sought out any limelight. But to kill like that in public must be some form of communication I would think....so Jack let his acts speak for themelves.

Best regards.

[bluecedar]

Great analysis, perrymason. I see you've really thought this through, much more than I have. But even though there is no evidence, I think it is highly likely that JTR, like the Zodiac, got a kick out of reading about his crimes in the newspapers and out of terrifying an entire city. Almost every serial killer does. They kill out of a fear of being insignificant.

[Khanada]

I agree with Michael.

Still, to answer the original question, "Which in your opinion is the more frightening of the two killers?", of course I would have to say the Zodiac.

After all, at this (relatively) recent date, we don't know for sure where he is -- he could be dead, he could be in prison or a mental hospital for various non-Zodiac reasons, and then again, he could be loose among us still. And that idea is more than a little scary, for all that it doesn't keep me up nights.

[kensei]

Like JTR his killings inexplicably stopped after five, though he continued for years to write those frightening letters.

I recall Zodiac saying in one letter that there would be other murders he would make no claim to, that he would disguise them so that no one would ever know it was him.

[DarkPassenger]

Zodiac or Jack the Ripper? But which is better?

There's only one way to find out -

FIGHT!!

[johnsonandrew]

JTR/Zodiac

Hi, I have just read Zodiac by Robert Greysmith, which the film was based. the film was good but the book covers much more detail and i think we can learn from this of how JTR could have come to be messed up, paranoid and rejected. Arthur Lee Allen is the top suspect, and was questioned. huge amounts of facts are known about this man, but not enough evidence could bring him to court. in all the victims the girls were the reason behind this act, which is stated through such evidence.
Lee was a stalker, common in the serial killer type. questions have been asked did JTR know his victims? what made him do these crimes? was he ever caught but not enough evidence to take him to court?
i think JTR would be very much that of the Zodiac, but with a different MO, background, but many of the signs of a serial killer which is complicated, but stalking and control seem to feature in many cases. i have always thought JTR new his victims and was in that East End community, he could have been the creepy guy who nobody wants around but seems to hang around? Lee was this type, but was not convicted, he was a wierdo known by some of the victims and this known by the police files. he did not get caught in the act, no case?

[bluecedar]

Arthur Leigh Allen was not the Zodiac (handwriting, fingerprints and DNA testing all exonerate him) and Graysmith's research in many instances cannot be trusted. After all, this is the same man who proposed that Jack the Ripper was a Canadian-born Baptist preacher who after killing Mary Kelley moved to San Francisco and began killing again, even though a medical student was later convicted and hanged for the San Francisco murders. Zodiac was a good movie, though, even though it has about a hundred factual errors.

[bluecedar]

He never committed any more murders, though, after the cab driver. All he did was continue to write letters, boast and lie. He didn't want people to forget about him.

[johnsonandrew]

zodiac

hello again,
how can anybody say for a fact they know who the zodiac was or JTR was, I have put a few posts up and the attitude is so closed minded, people cannot say this happened or this did not happen because they know better, it drives me mad, fingerprints may have been coverd by glue or other means, and DNA has not been tested as the killers hair, blood was not taken at the scene of crime as DNA testing was not even heard of then, they have his blood samples, brain tissue after he died, if i am wrong i will take it back but i have never heard that samples of blood or other was taken that of the killer that was found at the scene, only finger prints, shoe plaster casts and palm prints were taken from the murder scenes, it may not be Lee, but i do not say i know for a fact, know one does just like the Ripper case. and hand writing evidence brings us back to the JTR diary, split personality's write with the difference when in each personality, Lee had five, fact.
this is to all that knows all, bring it on.
andy

[BLUE WIZZARD]

JTR was disorganized

In what way was he disorganized?