Alleyways and Larger Areas

[caz]

Hmmm. I quite like that idea, c.d. "I like you, and I'll be sure to look out for you again." He probably thought a woman would be putty in his hands after saying something like that, even when the 'fiend' was on everyone's lips and unfortunates were more wary of strangers than ever before.

Imagine his fury then, if he saw Liz and recognised her, but she didn't remember him or want anything to do with him this time. Did he go off in frustration to take it out on the first woman he found who was willing to take a chance with a stranger - a very unlucky Kate, lately returned to the area and just recovering from an almighty binge, and therefore not quite as sharp as she would otherwise have been?

Love,

Caz
X

[c.d.]

Hi Caz,

I have always wondered if Jack had done business with any of the victims on other occasions prior to his killing them. It might have given him a real sense of power that he could choose the time when they would die.

c.d.

[caz]

Hi Jeffery,

Sorry - I only just saw your post! Your questions are not 'silly' at all, but the reason nobody has attempted to provide any answers may be because the evidence doesn't help us to do so. We just have no way of knowing how many times the killer encountered women on the streets whom he considered potential victims, but didn't go on to attack them or even arouse their suspicions. What criteria he used to decide their individual fates must remain a mystery.

However, I do feel that the killer of Polly, Annie and Kate must have been governed to a considerable extent by the behaviour and co-operation of each prospective victim and that he had to respond accordingly. He may have had a relatively easy time of it with Polly (who joked about earning her doss money three times over and having a jolly new bonnet to help her do it again) and Annie (who had been out most of the night and was seriously unwell) and Kate (who had just come back from hopping and therefore had little personal experience of the streets under the ripper's rule. But there would have been limits to how much persuasion he could safely use with a woman who was reluctant to accompany him somewhere he would have felt more comfortable trying out new forms of mutilation and so on.

I think it's more than likely that this killer tried it on with many other women but failed to get them in the right place at the right time and yet didn't go past the point of no return with most of them. (Liz Stride may have been an unlucky exception.) Whether his usual backing-out routine could have involved doing the business, or coming up with a plausible excuse not to, those who survived an encounter with this man completely unharmed were presumably not in the habit of reporting vague suspicions to the police, or had no idea they could just have had a lucky escape from the Whitechapel Murderer.

Love,

Caz
X

[Jeffery]

What if...

Maybe this is kind of a foolish question, but if he did choose his victims this way, then what would he have done if they didn't take him somewhere like that? Would he just say "Sorry, luv, I just ain't in the mood" and walk away? Or do you think he'd actually go through with... What they thought he meant...

And if he didn't know ahead of time whether or not he was really going to kill the women, what was he thinking when he found them? Do you think he picked up women more frequently and just hoped it'd work out that time? Or could it be possible, if that's how he chose them, that he didn't even plan on killing them? It almost sounds like a subconscious trigger as much as a concious preference.

Again, maybe it's kind of a silly thing to ask, but I wonder what you think.

[caz]

Great, Sam. Thanks for that. I'll pop along later to check out the latest Liz threads.

Love,

Caz
X

[Sam Flynn]

Oddly enough, Caz, I believe someone's started a thread on Liz's missing (or not) sixpence. It may have the answer to your question - coz I don't

[caz]

A fourth potential victim (Stride) arguably didn't need her doss-money at all (she'd earned some earlier, by honest means) and may have been socialising with "boyfriends" - rather than clients - on the evening of her demise.

Hi Sam,

I may have missed something here, but was Liz found with any money on her? If not, she must have already spent that doss-money (on food? cachous? the piece of velvet? something else?), in which case it doesn't take much guessing why she may have had to hang about near the entrance to a club after midnight.

Or was she robbed by her killer?

Love,

Caz
X

[Chava]

Whatever happened to good old-fashioned begging, Byz, or calling on a friend? Even if Hutchinson's story isn't true, it at least reveals that begging a sixpence from a casual acquaintance wasn't particularly out of the ordinary.

Well, yes. But I always interpreted that--if it happened at all--to be a coy indication of how much it might cost to borrow Miss Kelly for a few minutes.

[Sam Flynn]

On the other hand, Chapman was going out to earn her lodging money at c. 1:35 AM. If not by prostitution, I would wonder or how she planned to earn it.

Whatever happened to good old-fashioned begging, Byz, or calling on a friend? Even if Hutchinson's story isn't true, it at least reveals that begging a sixpence from a casual acquaintance wasn't particularly out of the ordinary.

[The Grave Maurice]

For one thing, there is no report of Eddowes prostituting herself.

Perhaps not, but how else would she acquire sufficient funds to be blotto by 8 o'clock of the evening prior to her murder?

[Byzantine]

I'd agree with you that it's a fairly safe bet that one or other of them may have been prostituting themselves, but perhaps not all.

For one thing, there is no report of Eddowes prostituting herself. She was assumed to be a prostitute because she was a Jack the Ripper victim. With the theory being that Jack killed only prostitutes and would not target a woman walking alone c. 2:00 AM.

On the other hand, Chapman was going out to earn her lodging money at c. 1:35 AM. If not by prostitution, I would wonder or how she planned to earn it.

[Monty]

For one thing, there is no report of Eddowes prostituting herself. She was assumed to be a prostitute because she was a Jack the Ripper victim. With the theory being that Jack killed only prostitutes and would not target a woman walking alone c. 2:00 AM.

On the other hand, Chapman was going out to earn her lodging money at c. 1:35 AM. If not by prostitution, I would wonder or how she planned to earn it.

Byzantine,

I agree, there is no official nor hearsay report of Eddowes prostituting herself.

However, you must ask yourself the question why was she found murdered in such a secluded spot? Begging doesnt answer the question (too remote), nor does shelter (the cottages that were empty remained intact, Heydemanns Yard was locked and secure and there was no cover there in that corner from the rain) as there were far better locations around the area.

The only really plausible explanation is prostitution. Now this may be done out of necessity rather than choice, in her mind at least (and who are we to judge that?).

To me the term 'whore' is derogatory in the belittling sense. Its akin, in my view, to calling a Negro the 'N' word'. However I respect Chavas reasoning because, technically speaking, the word is a correct one.

Monty

[Barnaby]

how about "ladies of the night?"

[Chava]

Sorry, Bluecedar, but I reserve the right to keep calling them whores. That's what they would probably have called themselves. And since I don't have anything against women whoring for a living, be assured there is no moral finger-pointing going on. Whether these women were driven into prostitution or whether they just kind of drifted into it is completely irrelevant to the fact that someone killed them. The fault of the killing is his, not theirs. The way they lived their lives is their business, not ours. I'm not going to turn into some mealy-mouthed present-day Toynbee Hall type and mince around mouthing semantics.

[Jon Guy]

If, for example, Cadoche had lived at #29 rather than #27, then it wouldn't just have been Albert who'd have been caught with his pants down.

Sorry , I can see where you were going now !!

Incidentally, if they had gone into the yard of No.27, looking at the inquest details, Cadoche would have emerged from the yard loo just as one of them was going to say "no", so the Ripper may have just got away with it in that scenario.