Alleyways and Larger Areas

[Chava]

Kelly's room may have been small, but it was larger than the tight passageway that brought her to it, and it's where she led him. I wonder if it's possible that, as I said above, the victims choose themselves by the place they choose to take him. I'm not applying any culpability to these poor women, but I suspect that's how he chose who to kill. After all, he had a huge victim pool out there, and something took him to these women rather than other women. I'm thinking the conditions have to be absolutely right for him to kill. And that might explain why he went into the obviously dangerous--for him--dead-end that was the backyard of 29 Hanbury Street. His passion at that moment overrides his caution. But that passion is created by events and circumstances before the actual kill--which I believe is where intercourse begins in his rather unpleasant worldview. What happens before--what they say to him; they're leading him through tight, constricted areas into the 'uterus' is foreplay. I don't think he decides to kill until he gets into that space. This might explain the strange gaps between the killings. He went out looking, but no one between Chapman and Eddowes took him into exactly the right kind of place in exactly the right kind of circumstances. Nicholls is somewhat anachronistic in that she's not killed right in a larger area--sort of premature ejaculation. Stride, as you've pointed out, isn't killed in the broadest part of the yard. But there are still elements of this model in both killings. Eddowes, Chapman and Kelly exhibit all characteristics.

[bluecedar]

Hate to keep harping on this one point, but these women were not whores. Whores are women (or men) who have sex with a lot of people for the enjoyment; these women were driven into the profession of prostitution by financial hardship. It was their business; they did not do it for pleasure.

[Sam Flynn]

Hate to keep harping on this one point, but these women were not whores. Whores are women (or men) who have sex with a lot of people for the enjoyment; these women were driven into the profession of prostitution by financial hardship. It was their business; they did not do it for pleasure.

I'm not so sure that all modern prostitutes consider their job a laugh a minute, either, Blue - but your point is otherwise valid. Note, also, that it's by no means certain that all the victims were actively prostituting themselves on the nights/mornings they died either.

[Jeff Leahy]

I'm not so sure that all modern prostitutes consider their job a laugh a minute, either, Blue - but your point is otherwise valid. Note, also, that it's by no means certain that all the victims were actively prostituting themselves on the nights/mornings they died either.

No, but its a fairly safe bet given what is known.

Pirate

P.S. While your discussing Hanbury Street do you, or anyone, know what was on the other side? I'd always presumed other gardens...but how close to the nearest Ally exit?

[Robert]

Let's not strain the sexual symbolism. You could just as well say that he was trying to be reborn.

[Jon Guy]

If he'd had more control over the situation - or at least more sense - then he wouldn't have chosen to mutilate her so close to the back step.

Hi Sam

Whether it was Annies or the killers decision, by standing between the steps and fence,close to the wall, they were out of view of all the windows, possibly apart from the window on the stairs.

[Sam Flynn]

No, but its a fairly safe bet given what is known.

What is known, Jeff, is that at least three of them were doss-house dwellers who had no money to pay for their doss on the evenings of their deaths. It's by no means certain that they weren't simply begging or trying to scrounge a room, rather than actively prostituting themselves. A fourth potential victim (Stride) arguably didn't need her doss-money at all (she'd earned some earlier, by honest means) and may have been socialising with "boyfriends" - rather than clients - on the evening of her demise.

I'd agree with you that it's a fairly safe bet that one or other of them may have been prostituting themselves, but perhaps not all.

[Sam Flynn]

Whether it was Annies or the killers decision, by standing between the steps and fence,close to the wall, they were out of view of all the windows, possibly apart from the window on the stairs.

Indeed, Jon - however, my point is more to do with the threat posed by someone entering the yard via the passageway/back door that abutted directly onto Jack's "operating theatre". If, for example, Cadoche had lived at #29 rather than #27, then it wouldn't just have been Albert who'd have been caught with his pants down.

[Jon Guy]

If, for example, Cadoche had lived at #29 rather than #27, then it wouldn't just have been Albert who'd have been caught with his pants down.

Sorry , I can see where you were going now !!

Incidentally, if they had gone into the yard of No.27, looking at the inquest details, Cadoche would have emerged from the yard loo just as one of them was going to say "no", so the Ripper may have just got away with it in that scenario.

[Chava]

Sorry, Bluecedar, but I reserve the right to keep calling them whores. That's what they would probably have called themselves. And since I don't have anything against women whoring for a living, be assured there is no moral finger-pointing going on. Whether these women were driven into prostitution or whether they just kind of drifted into it is completely irrelevant to the fact that someone killed them. The fault of the killing is his, not theirs. The way they lived their lives is their business, not ours. I'm not going to turn into some mealy-mouthed present-day Toynbee Hall type and mince around mouthing semantics.

[Barnaby]

how about "ladies of the night?"

[Monty]

For one thing, there is no report of Eddowes prostituting herself. She was assumed to be a prostitute because she was a Jack the Ripper victim. With the theory being that Jack killed only prostitutes and would not target a woman walking alone c. 2:00 AM.

On the other hand, Chapman was going out to earn her lodging money at c. 1:35 AM. If not by prostitution, I would wonder or how she planned to earn it.

Byzantine,

I agree, there is no official nor hearsay report of Eddowes prostituting herself.

However, you must ask yourself the question why was she found murdered in such a secluded spot? Begging doesnt answer the question (too remote), nor does shelter (the cottages that were empty remained intact, Heydemanns Yard was locked and secure and there was no cover there in that corner from the rain) as there were far better locations around the area.

The only really plausible explanation is prostitution. Now this may be done out of necessity rather than choice, in her mind at least (and who are we to judge that?).

To me the term 'whore' is derogatory in the belittling sense. Its akin, in my view, to calling a Negro the 'N' word'. However I respect Chavas reasoning because, technically speaking, the word is a correct one.

Monty

[Byzantine]

I'd agree with you that it's a fairly safe bet that one or other of them may have been prostituting themselves, but perhaps not all.

For one thing, there is no report of Eddowes prostituting herself. She was assumed to be a prostitute because she was a Jack the Ripper victim. With the theory being that Jack killed only prostitutes and would not target a woman walking alone c. 2:00 AM.

On the other hand, Chapman was going out to earn her lodging money at c. 1:35 AM. If not by prostitution, I would wonder or how she planned to earn it.

[The Grave Maurice]

For one thing, there is no report of Eddowes prostituting herself.

Perhaps not, but how else would she acquire sufficient funds to be blotto by 8 o'clock of the evening prior to her murder?

[Sam Flynn]

On the other hand, Chapman was going out to earn her lodging money at c. 1:35 AM. If not by prostitution, I would wonder or how she planned to earn it.

Whatever happened to good old-fashioned begging, Byz, or calling on a friend? Even if Hutchinson's story isn't true, it at least reveals that begging a sixpence from a casual acquaintance wasn't particularly out of the ordinary.