A.P. Wolf

[Natalie Severn]

But that is patently ridiculous Ben.All Hutch had to do was leave town.He had nothing to lose.Nobody knew who Sarah Lewis was talking about,she never named him.So if Hutch was a tad bothered about how she may squeal if she copped sight of him leaving the temporary address at Victoria Home---------all he had to do was leave town for a few months.What had he to lose?
I thought the reason he was supposed to present himself for " four hours of intense Police interrogation" followed by a lengthy written statement in the presence of four Commercial Street Police Officers at Commercial Street Police Station [after admitting he had been at the entrance to Millers Court on the night of the murder] was because he got a "serial killers" special buzz out of it---like we know sexual serial killers do? On top of that he agree to be accompanied by two police officers [one Abberline]while they toured Whitechapel"s Petticoat Lane area[adjacent to the Victoria home] looking for the man.Doesnt sound like a guilty ripper bothered about being recognised by any Whitechapel residents--- people who may ,after all, have seen him around the other murders at the time they were committed.

[Ben]

But that is patently ridiculous Ben.

(Sigh) No it isn't.

Other serial killers have come forward with false information when they could have left town instead, and for various reasons. Maybe they thought they'd attract more suspicion by making themselves conspicuously absent in the wake of a recent murder? Maybe there was some characteristic-of-serial-killers bravado at play? Maybe they were more interested in creating an image of a helpful witness if ever their name cropped up in the future? Maybe they were more interested in creating a false scent?

Reasoning why is all very well, but of more immediate interest to us is the fact that it happens anyway.

Hutchinson's statement would have fulfilled two purposes, one of which was reactive: "I was there because..." and the other was proactive "...I was a scary Jewish man with a knife-shaped parcel". He was at once "legitimizing" his presence near a crime scene and deflecting suspicion in a convenient direction. Who can say which one was prioritized more?

Doesnt sound like a guilty ripper bothered about being recognised by any Whitechapel residents

By that stage it wouldn't have mattered, would it? He'd got his story in first. He'd nailed his colours to the "helpful witness" mast and sowed the seeds of an erroneous preconception. If Lewis saw him in the streets while he was out on an Astrakhan hunt with the coppers and blurted out "I saw him at 2:30!", Hutchinson would say "Yes, just as I told you".

This really isn't a Hutchinson thread.

Best regards,
Ben

[Natalie Severn]

Ben,
Would you be good enough to name one other sexual serial killer you know of who volunteered,unsolicited, a FOUR HOUR INTERVIEW in a POLICE STATION with four policemen at hand to take his lengthy "WITNESS" STATEMENT?
Thankyou
Norma

[Sam Flynn]

Why, Sam?
Because it changes the mind set we have of the killer.

How can speculating on mind-sets ever help to identify an individual, AP? It's not as if we have a database or "Dictionary of National Psycho-biography" in which we can look up certain traits in order to identify a list of candidates. Even if we had, we'd have to be sure that we'd identified the correct traits in the first place and, as we know, opinions on these matters are very much divided.

[Ben]

Hi Norma,

Why start a random suspect-related debate on a thread entitled "A.P. Wolf"?

Where are you getting "four hours" from?

And are you seriously suggesting that Hutchinson had some sort of control over the number of policemen in attendance once he entered the police station?

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Norma,

As far as the "four hours" are concerned, aren't you confusing this with the interview the police had with Barnett?

All the best

[Natalie Severn]

Dear Ben,
When has the "wrong thread" ever worried you before might I ask?
However,fair enough, if you are really bothered about taking up "Downonwhores" thread ,why not just answer with a single word-ie the "surname" of any other sexual serial killer who presented himself at a police station like Hutchinson did at the height of the ripper scare---and for several hours of interrogation at least- giving the police a lengthy written statement-and providing further assistance by accompanying them on a[recorded ]two hour tour of Whitechapel -as Hutchinson did.
I thought it was recorded that Hutchinson was with police for four hours,whatever-at least two must have been spent answering police questions and writing a statement and another two spent [as is recorded] touring Whitechapel looking for Mr Astrakhan with the two policemen immediately after the interview.He also spent the next morning from 11.30 onwards,touring round Whitechapel accompanied by police ,again looking for Mr Astrakhan.
Best Norma

[Natalie Severn]

Thankyou for the Barnett reminder.You may be right,I will double check later Glenn,
Best
Norma

[Ben]

Dear Norma,

However,fair enough, if you are really bothered about taking up "Downonwhores" thread ,why not just answer with a single word-ie the "surname" of any other sexual serial killer who presented himself at a police station like Hutchinson did at the height of the ripper scare---and for several hours of interrogation at least

John Eric Armstrong, Gary Ridgeway, Nathaniel Code, Roger Fain, Colin Ireland, Joseph Koedatich... Plenty of them. Get Googling.

and providing further assistance by accompanying them on a[recorded ]two hour tour of Whitechapel -as Hutchinson did.

This is irrelevent because it wasn't something Hutchinson intended to do beforehand. It wasn't as though he volunteered to accompany police round the district. It was an unexpected outcome of the interview, although there are certainly cases of killers accompany police round a particular neighbourhood or premises - Huntley springs to mind. It's also irrelevent to keep mentioning the length of the interview of the number of police officials in attendance, since Hutchinson couldn't have exercised any control over either.

It doesn't particularly bother me that we're on a wrong thread for a Hutchinson discussion - I can cheerfully discuss in anywhere anytime. I'm rather more concerned that anyone searching the forums expecting to find a discussion on A.P. Wolf will find it seriously derailed.

Ben

[perrymason]

Ill help Ben.....

Without AP as a foil a lot of these discussions would be milktoast, and I applaud him and others for using the forum merely to discuss not promote.

Having said that, I will never sit down and have one brandy near a Brandy distillery with AP Wolf. You can quote me.

Best regards.

[Natalie Severn]

No Ben.That is NOT what I asked at all.I asked for a serial killer"s name who had "volunteered-ie actually gone inside a police station during the height of the police hunt for him,with detailed information of a witness description,and spent four hours [actually closer to six hours according to my research]helping those police with a lengthy written statement followed by four hours walkabouts with policemen -inclusive.I dont believe you can give me one such instance.I know about the chaps you quote.Not one of them did that did they?

[Ben]

Now you're changing the goalposts.

I find that irritating in the extreme.

You ask me to provide examples of a phenomenon that you believe doesn't exist.

I provide examples.

Then you pretend you were asking a different question, and try to sneak in lots of additional specific detail, as though failure to provide a comparable example of the level of detail you were requesting somehow lends weight to your naysaying. It doesn't, and sneaking in additional details is a dishonest debating strategy, and pointless to boot, since the individuals in question did essentially the same thing for essentially the same reasons.

I know about the chaps you quote.

I don't believe you.

Why do you keep mentioning the "four hours" detail, incidentally? Glenn just reminded you that you were confusing him with Barnett, you ackowledged his point, but then went straight back to asserting with no evidence that the interview lasted four to six hours. Provide your evidence for the assertion please, or kindly don't keep going in about it.

[Natalie Severn]

Ben,
I know that serial killers sometimes insert themselves into investigations.But my question here was and is about the "specificity" of Hutchinson"s actions vis a vis his lengthy interrogation,statement and subsequent street assistance to police---being replicated by any other serial killer.Please look back to my original request which you did not answer,instead asking other questions about the thread-it was a specific question although it could have been answered with one name.If you can supply the detail of this I would be very grateful.But not just a blanket response of every serial killer you know of.No "if but or however" generalised scenarios of serial killers,but one where the behaviour is actually matches up to what Hutchinson did in his local Police Station .Post it on another thread if you prefer,just provide a link.

[Ben]

But my question here was and is about the "specificity" of Hutchinson"s actions vis a vis his lengthy interrogation,statement and subsequent street assistance to police---being replicated by any other serial killer.

But that's ridiculous on two counts, Norma.

1) No two serials can possibly mirror one another to the extent you're expecting, so asking for extra levels of "specificity" only makes your request seem all the more unreasonable and outlandish.

2) "Lengthy interrogations" and "subsequent street assistance to police" were factors beyond his control. He didn't request or volunteer to accompany coppers round the district any more than he requested extra long interviews (which you keep asserting occured without any real evidence). If they were factors beyond his immediate control, what specific importance are you attaching to them in relation to other serial killers? "This serial killer had a slightly longer interview than that one, so they must have had completely different motivations for coming forward!"...?

If you can supply the detail of this I would be very grateful..

I have done as you know full well. Readily applicable and germane examples that "actually match up to what Hutchinson did" insofar as it relates to actual behaviour when placed in a certain predicament. Long interviews and Astrakhan hunts obviously do not qualify on that score since since he had no control over either. To claim that I've only provided "generalised scenarios" and that I didn't answer your question is both dishonest and desperate, I'm afraid.

[Roy Corduroy]

Gary Ridgeway

I don't recall him coming forward, Ben. A victim who lived led police to his house. But they didn't arrest him right then. It was years later. Or did I miss something?

Roy