Underground?

[Mike Covell]

Having spent some time as an Industrial Cleaner and having to wander through sewer systems similar to this, I would say it is highly unlikely anyone with an ounce of sense would venture into them.

A couple of examples,
A few years ago I was looking for a blockage in a sewer in an Industrial area of Hull, it appeared to have been a large ball of junk, all gathered at a small outlet, but when the ball was dragged into a bag, there was a rather large snake! Now I don't have a fear of snakes, but to see something alive in that hell hole, almost made me fill my pants!

About the same time a good friend of mine, who had a similar call out, found a tarantula in the sewers on the docks!

The smell of some sewer's stays with you, no matter how hard you scrub, I remember visiting a sewer system under a cocoa factory and all the by products they shoved down the drain made me sick, not to mention the smell, and sights!

On one occassion I was called out, along with my father, to attend to a spillage at a plant that processed seed. A tank had burst and seed and water had emptied into a subterrainean chamber. We entered with full breathing equipment to locate the drain cover and remove it, to allow the water and seed to be pumped into a holding tank, and later destroyed. The seed had always attracted rats and mice but on this occasion there seemed to be quite a lot of the little critters, all trying to escape the waist deep water. I was constantly removing rats from my head and shoulders, and stopping them gnawing at my air supply.


If JTR used the sewer systems to escape, surely someone would have noticed a rather smelly man, walking the Whitechapel alleys and avenues late at night!

[Suzi]

Here you are, Michael.

http://www.btp.police.uk/History%20S...0Policeman.htm

'Fairy KAY' 'eh Robert!!.......Ah another slip from the Mc Carthy/Kendall clan maybe!!

Oh and a rather grubby smelly man possibly accompanied by the odd rodent would have attracted attention late at night in Whitechapel would he Mike??

Suz x

[mikey559]

Sewers

I have heard the sewer/underground theories before. I just don't find it plausible. Maybe (very slight possibility) the underground, bu I just can't believe the sewers. It doesn't make sense. It would be difficult traveling and on a rainy night, whouldn't there be a high volume of water?

Mikey

[KatBradshaw]

I remember............

..........when I was a lot younger walking around London with my Dad having a flash of inspiration and thinking 'He used the Underground'. I was so excited with my theory my Dad thought I was going to burst! When I looked in to it though I found that others had considered it and had decided it was not likely. I was so disapointed not to have found the key to his mysterious disapperances.

Now, probably 18 years later, I am still intrigued by the theory but have to agree with the people who cane to the conclusion that they played no part is his escape.

[karensa]

Ahh, I knew I wasn't alone wondering about a sewer/tunnel system escape route. While I can appreciate Mike's reluctance to consider the tunnel/sewer theory, it read to me like subjectivity more than any evidence it wasn't likely. Maybe the sewers he worked in were rank but that's all beside the point.

The relevant question is - are there tunnels/sewer system under this area specific to the kills and if so, has anyone actually gone down in them to see about conditions, or to provide a more factually relevant depiction of their conditions or accessibility in 1888. It may not have specifically been raw sewer routes, but some other sort of tunnel system which are common across the planet...and if so, he didn't need to run through slimey darkness for miles and miles - he could've run a block or so and come out in a relatively concealed area and then be gone. He could've cleaned off down there too...and frankly, could've been a squatter down there for all we know.

He wasn't a brilliant ninja with super ninja turtle powers. If he slaughtered anything or anybody in this manner, he's going to be a bloody mess. Nobody who is even remotely sane will just trot on down the streets without a care in the world...so the escape route is critical to figure out.

If he's inside somewhere, then he had to obviously leave, but he would be leaving covered in blood...and if people saw them entering, then he'd be conscious people could see him leaving. Did he actually have a room or access to the same housing the victims each had so he could fall into the crowd as just another resident?

We know he didn't take off running down the streets covered in blood.

We know he didn't shower and change inside where the victims were if he hooked up inside at all.

Otherwise, he encountered them very near where he killed them outside, and blood still happens.

He got away sight unseen, undetected and without drawing any suspicions.

A tunnel route would make this entirely feasible.


It doesn't make sense. It would be difficult traveling and on a rainy night, whouldn't there be a high volume of water?

It does to me. It wouldn't be difficult if he had a form of lighting, and again, he may have only run it a block or two, not like he went cross country - he's just getting out of the immediate risk zone. As for water, most sewers and tunnels would have drain function to prevent flooding of the streets which is why most of the sewer/tunnel systems were built to begin with, to prevent that sort of thing. And if I was all bloody, a good amount of water would be exactly what I'd want to find....wash and run...and if it's raining, then when I slip out, if I'm seen, nobody's the wiser if I'm wet.

If anyone lives in this area or visits it, a thorough investigation of any tunnel or sewer systems and their history would be reeeeally helpful to rule it in or out as an option, I'd think...and for those who have ruled it out, what's it actually based on?

[Monty]

We know he didn't take off running down the streets covered in blood.

Do we now.

...and for those who have ruled it out, what's it actually based on?

Indeed


Monty

[Fisherman]

Paddy Goose writes:

"John Eastcott photographed these two cleaners, Sam Luck (left)..."

Sam Luck? Some luck!

The best,
Fisherman

[karensa]

Okay Monty, so Jack the Ripper did go running down the streets covered in blood, is that what your comment is to imply?

If so, I offer you the same smartass answer...do we now?

It's far less likely he or anyone else would commit this sort of crime and just run down the roads all bloody, with people about or potentially about.

It's not less likely he or anyone else would commit this sort of crime and decide hey, nobody can see me underground.

If you have evidence Jack the Ripper ran down the streets all covered in blood after each kill, I'm sure we'd all love to see it. Then I will recant the statement I made (based on common sense in lieu of hard evidence, which is few and far between in this case)...until then, maybe a more reasoned comment from you could be had, eh? Since my question was legitimate curiosity and interest...and if it's been factually discounted, the question was based on what?

Thanks

[Monty]

Karensa,

You offered that "We know he didn't take off running down the streets covered in blood."

I am merely questioning how we know this is fact?

The answer wasnt intended to be smart ass, it was a caution against passing suggestion off as fact, which is what you have done. Whilst at the same time screaming for 'evidence' otherwise.

I cite the blood smeared apron of Catherine Eddowes as evidence.....can you top it? Proof Jack did have blood upon his persons.

Here endith the lesson.

Now, lets get back to thread business, on the 1st of October 1888, 10 men descended into the sewer system of Mitre Street. They were looking for the murder weapon, clothes or any clue that may have helped them find the murderer. An investigation of the sewer system had taken place the day after Eddowes had been discovered.

Happy?

Monty

[perrymason]

The sewers were just one underground access way for someone who wanted to stay unseen.....the Underground was in ongoing expansion in 1888 and it was coming right through the East End that year...they needed to link with the existing rail systems to allow for travel throughout the Metropolis.

I dont believe that this is the answer for the Ripper series....if there is in fact a series that extends beyond 2 or 3 victims....for the very simple reason that access to the tunnels was locked by iron gates each night at each station.....it would mean he would have to have had keys.....he couldnt just enter a damaged gate and expect to find another damaged gate or perhaps an unlocked one to escape somewhere else near to home.

All the best.

[Sam Flynn]

I dont believe that this is the answer for the Ripper series....if there is in fact a series that extends beyond 2 or 3 victims....for the very simple reason that access to the tunnels was locked by iron gates each night at each station.

Mike, mate - did you really have to insert that bit underlined bold into what was otherwise an interesting (and on-topic) post? Can't you resist the temptation to slip in one of your "fave raves" at every juncture?

Pretty-please!

[perrymason]

Mike, mate - did you really have to insert that bit underlined bold into what was otherwise an interesting (and on-topic) post? Can't you resist the temptation to slip in one of your "fave raves" at every juncture?

Pretty-please!

I added it Sam because I believe the question of how he might have escaped from murder sites relates directly to what victims we can identify with some degree of reliability were probably his doing.

What murder sites he would need to escape from is part of this whole question....thats why I inserted the line.

Cheers G

[karensa]

Yep, happy...thank you, kindly.

I ask because it is a common sense question but this has never captured my attention as it has the ripperologists...I got snagged up after seeing the program, so having zero clue about what the investigation entailed, I asked about underground option.

I also realize we'll never really know regardless, but if this was investigated and documented at the time and ruled out that would be helpful to know.

We basically have a few reasonable options -

1. he actually did take the high risk (which seems to negate his MO) and go onto public roads where he could've been seen or identified, while covered in blood

2. Above but he stripped down to nothing or next to nothing so at least bloody clothing wouldn't raise a brow (perhaps running naked men was par for the course down there?)

3. He had close, concealed access to any of the buildings nearby with quarters to clean up, change clothing and then cruise out the front door all casually nobody thought anything of it

4. He had a concealed route out of dodge - like the tunnels/sewer system or whatever it specifically is

May have been a couple of witnesses saying the victims were seen with mystery man, but we can't be sure any mystery man was the one who killed them, could've just been johns.

I agree with the others who point out he wasn't a genius, and in a large way he got away with it all through dumb luck of lack of forensic ability in investigators and who knows what sort of evidence had been missed - but for all intents and purposes, he left nothing behind of note...and his escape route to me would be crucial to try to work out since it could help shed light on other areas still encased in shadow.

I can see, though, how this case can easily obsess people Just since posting that, I had a warped dream of tracking Kelly to the ripper knife...and about 75% of my time since posting has been spent pondering how he got away...the question screaming for an answer...the kind that keeps ya up all night

[karensa]

PS - presuming for this purpose that James Kelly was always Jack - I wanted to add this to Michael's comment that since the gates were locked, he'd have to have keys, and this is a larger reason he is inclined to dismiss it.

James Kelly, at the tender, youthful murderous age of 25 fashioned himself a key and escaped from an insane asylum. Who's to say he didn't have some curious knowledge of locksmithing on his side that helped. Also consider that he managed to get out of an asylum "sight unseen" and stay on the run for an astonishing 39 years.

For a kid with syphillis, he was clearly a resourceful clever little guy...and if Kelly was the ripper, while not a genius, he did manage to outsmart a buttload of countries, investigators, reporters, medical professionals et al for 128 years.

If that's not getting Pwned I don't know what is!