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Hi All, 9/18/08
First off let me apologize for tendencies to purple prose and veering down Church Lane tangents. I’ll try to keep my offbeat ramblings to a minimum. Let me also say that I have performed no original research and will here only offer musings as simply another JTR enthusiast. Also, to avoid deadwood, everything I state in this article can be assumed to be my opinion and nothing more. I won’t say I think, I believe, in my opinion etc.. every time as this will be understood. If the tone seems didactic keep this in mind.
I have just completed Philip Sudgen’s excellent book as well as read most of the dissertations on the casebook site. I do not consider myself a Ripperologist but simply one who has had a recurring interest in the case over several decades and tends to read a great deal when the virus metastasizes. For some reason, this shackled obsession has recently resurfaced.
I found several of the dissertations to be brilliant to the point of absurdity. I found the essay about the other brother or cousin Jew (Cohen) to be the most clever. It’s almost certainly too complex to be true but in general Cohen or Kaminski is one of my top 2 suspects. The imaginative writer weaves Jewish paranoia, extortion (award money), a schizophrenic scapegoat brother and family tyranny into a complex labyrinth.
Although less interesting, the exhaustive timeframe analysis of the Chapman murder ear witness is an excellent exercise in deductive reasoning. Minutes are dissected, witnesses analyzed, walking routes timed, clock angles perused, voice projections surmised etc.. to the point of weariness. I personally believe it’s irrelevant as I support the doctor/coroner and believe Chapman died at 3 or 4 in the morning and therefore all supposed witness testimony at 05:30 is a moot point. There are two other really good essays analyzing the wounds of poor Catherine Eddowes; one is a preposterous but creative analysis purporting every slice as a distinct occult signal, the other a scientific run through of exactly how and in what order the wounds were executed. The most compelling dissertation however wasn’t particularly brilliant or interesting except it named a new (to me) suspect. I believe the name was James Hardiman, a horse meat man or what they called cat’s meats at the time. Basically a butcher who lived in the vicinity, who’s mother lived at 29 Hanbury street at one time, who had a grievance as a wife and child had syphilis etc..(blaming the whores!)…I agree with the author that further research on this individual could prove quite fruitful.
Anyone capable of such monstrous cruelty would have shown psychopathy(sociopathy, anti social personality or whatever the psychologist’s are calling it this week) signs throughout his life. This Hardiman fits who I surmise as the killer – a working class bloke – not terribly educated - a psycho who lives in WhiteChapel and knows how to slice and dice. Not terribly exotic (no Toff’s here) but most likely true. The dissertation in question and I should give it more credit, is quite thoughtful and proposes an accomplice in the form of a disgruntled former cop. This cannot be summarily dismissed. The hour delay for the apron and Ghoulston Street graffito is perplexing and the writer surmises JTR ran across the courtyard straight into the house of said cop. Here he did his tidying up under the approving eye of his accomplice. The partner scenario is leant credence by JTR’s ghostlike disappearance’s within minutes of Eddowe’s discovery. The Hanbury street murder is more plausible with a lookout present and the Stride murder witness Schwartz even mentioned 2 men. I suppose it’s also possible JTR spent nearly an hour hiding in doorways etc… as cops and volunteers scurried about while he cleaned his hands and avoided detection. Despite all this, I don’t believe the accomplice theory. It’s rare to have 2 psycho’s operating in tandem. The California Hillside Stranglers were such a team so it can’t be ruled out off hand. I suppose it’s also possible JTR spent nearly an hour hiding in doorways etc… as cops and volunteers scurried about while he cleaned his hands and avoided detection. Whatever the case, the apparent time delay before the graffiti and apron were found offer the imaginative a blank canvas on which to paint further theories.
My mind overflows with details. Where did he keep the knife? Did he carry a parcel or bag? I doubt this. Did he wear rubber soled shoes to muffle footsteps? How many layers of clothing did he wear? Did he have a special laundry bag for organs? What about disguises? Did he wear gloves? Did he live alone? What did he do with the viscera? Why did he remove organs? This could just be a sociopathic compulsion that he himself didn’t understand. Maybe it was the common trophy taking that we’ve seen with modern serial killers. How did he clean the blood and where did he discard the rags? If cohabitating, his fellow lodgers must have seen, heard and/or smelled something. Did they keep quiet? If you buy the multi Jew theory, this is precisely the argument. Was JTR an Irishman trying to engender riots and or a pogrom against the Jews? How much planning was involved? Did he arrange meetings with the women in advance? Did he get a bit drunk for nerve but not drunk enough to leave clues or compromise escape? The questions go on forever – this is one reason the case so compels.
Also, as an aside, I give no credence to the Maybrick diary and there’s an excellent dissertation that trashes the whole idea. Another detail that perplexes me is the lack of screams and apparent lack of victim struggle. Typically, if someone is strangling you with their bare hands, the natural instinct is to scratch and claw and rip at those hands. This evidence would show up on the victims as well as JTR. I believe Stride has some strange blood spots on the back of one hand and Mary Kelly had a minor indication of hand/wrist scratches but not so the others. One clever fellow mentioned the possibility of the use of chloroform but this seems a little too sophisticated. I wonder if he used a ligature which might reduce struggle marks? I have no answers and invite further discussion.
Another big question is of course the letters. I tend to believe all were hoaxes but it depends on my ever changing analysis of the bloody apron and graffiti. If one believes JTR scrawled the infamous Juwes message, then for consistencies sake, one should also believe he sent at least 1 letter. In other words he liked taunting, giving clues and throwing cops off the chase. It appears the From Hell letter and the Juwes scribble both indicate the same uneducated hand but since graffiti wasn’t left at any of the other murder sites, I tend to reject the letters outright. JTR certainly had plenty of time to leave a manifesto on the wall of 13 Miller’s Court but did no such thing. Graffiti may have nothing to do with letters but I posit them as opposite sides of the same equation. That is of course if one accepts Mary Kelly as a JTR victim. I can’t believe someone could copy cat to such a level of depravity. Is it reasonable to believe there were 2 people capable of eviscerating women in the London East End at this time? I think not. That brings us to the canonical 5. Although I also vacillate on this, I don’t consider Tabram a Ripper victim. The fact of 2 weapons more than the stab versus incision wounds is the anomaly. I can’t see JTR deciding “Oh I’ll jam this dagger into her sternum and then get out my little pocket knife and start whacking her like Anthony Perkins in Psycho”. I know MO’s can morph but this seems a stretch. It’s more likely that 2 angry drunken sailors killed her for some perceived slight in military inspired overkill frenzy. My position on Stride swings back and forth as well. There are strong arguments both ways. The increasing daring of leaving a corpse in a highly trafficked area is there as is the finger pointing at the Jews yet the domestic scenario is also laudable. Was JTR interrupted? It’s also a decent hall to Mitre Square in the time frame allotted. This one’s a hard nut to crack. Yet another quality dissertation convincingly proposed Stride as a victim of a domesticate dispute gone bad? Again, lack of screams indicates she may have been familiar at least with Broad Shoulders unless JTR snuck in quickly after BS left? I find in nearly impossible to decide on this case. I can live with the 5 but I do reject the copy cat murders of the following year or 2. Can’t say I can give a decent reason why.
After my last JTR studies I came away convinced that Tumblety was the lone culprit. I no longer hold this view, main reason?, the description. Whether one believes anyone ever gave a legitimate description of JTR, this huge, bushy faced American charlatan would have stood out like Oscar Wilde at a labor rally. Was he capable of disguise, humped over and masking his loud braggadocios nature on murder nights? I suppose it’s possible but it doesn’t fit the serial killer personality. He appears a homosexual con man, certainly full of baloney but not the type to commit cruel murders on leisurely weekends. Homosexual serial killers tend to kill men or boys rather than women. He also doesn’t seem the type to disappear in a crowd. He was a huge self promoter – can’t see him disappearing into the shadows. A fancily dressed quack described as between 5’10” and 6’2” fits no description and he supposedly had a mustache the length of Ten Bells to Hanbury Street. Again, I see the killer as the most nondescript individual imaginable, a guy you wouldn’t notice even if standing on his head in Berner street. I’m not sure what to make of the Batty Street Lodger stories. One writer found no evidence that Tumblety lived on said street and even surmised that the witness Israel Schwartz lived there. The stories of bloody shirts were also explored and somewhat explained away. I can’t imagine someone clever enough to leave no clues and few credible witnesses would throw a bloody shirt at his landlady for cleaning. My take is that the Batty Street stuff can be ignored unless some real evidence is uncovered.
I read where a modern profiler considered JTR a disorganized killer. I disagree. One must consider several factors. Few mention the thrill this killer experienced through the bold and daring nature of his acts. Sure, some crimes were committed in isolated locales but all areas were commonly traversed. To carve someone up in a crowded backyard with people literally all around takes astounding nerve as does the Mitre Square event where policeman and volunteers surrounded. Again, accomplice? The taunting of the police and the thrill of danger gave the perpetrator a feeling of superiority as we’ve seen replayed in modern serial killers like Ted Bundy. Pare that with the fact that the killer disappeared as if a phantom, left no evidence (not even bloody footprints), and carried off a knife, some lukewarm organs and perhaps a towel for cleaning. He also knew how to slit a throat so that the blood didn’t cover him. This is a planner and furtive sort. His murders may have been crimes of opportunity but he knew what he wanted to do and how to get the heck out of there. I suppose one could fit a knife, kidney and piece of cloth in a big pocket but there had to be some visible blood yet witnesses of a blood spattered escapee don’t exist. One must also keep in mind that the perpetrator had the charm to disarm (figuratively) the victims even when they were on red alert. He had to seem the last guy in the world who was about to strangle them. Even the Miller Court massacre took astounding nerve. Who’s to say the landlord or Mr. Hutchison or another John or a friend might not come knocking while the psychopath was carving up the poor woman; a knock on the door or a look in the window and he’s finished. This was no slobbering, gutter licking, masturbating maniac like Aaron Kosminski. Kosminski was most likely schizophrenic which is not the illness usually associated with sociopathic serial killers. I’ve seen a great deal of writing mentioning lunatics or raving madmen. The authorities weren’t familiar (at least academically) with these antisocial personality types in the 19th century and it appears they were looking for a bloody, drooling, knuckle dragging Mr. Hyde shuffling down the street with a knife in one hand and his penis in the other. Instead they should have been looking for the mild mannered mute who swept the floor of the slaughterhouse or loaded horsemeat onto the shelves or the bespectacled tailor’s assistant who rarely spoke a word but was articulate when engaged. I expect if the real JTR stood up, the whole of East London would scream “you’ve got to be kidding me!”
I also share Sudgen’s dismay that fingerprinting wasn’t utilized and only minimal photography. Fingerprinting was somewhat in its infancy although known by law enforcement and photographs of the crime scene were only carried out in the Mary Kelly case. I would imagine the modern researcher’s task would be much easier if detailed photographs or fingerprint records could be analyzed. I personally can’t fathom why both of these CSI type practices weren’t exhaustively utilized?
This case fascinates for 3 main reasons. The first and obvious one is the whodunit? We love a mystery and this one has more roads and back alleys than Whitechapel itself. The second is our morbid curiosity due to the deranged horror of the crimes. What kind of monster could do this to any other human being? Why in God’s name is he slicing up the abdomen? Isn’t a slit throat enough? Lastly, many of us have a romantic image of this sordid gas lit human sardine can that was East London 1888. I imagine we’d all be disgusted if transported there today what with the grime, stench, overcrowding and filth of early industrial living. But our delusional sense of nostalgia knows no bounds as the relatively primitive pre-electrical conditions and savage poverty draw us in. One frequently sees paintings of the fog shrouded thoroughfares yet as far as I know, besides a rainy evening during the Double event, there’s no mention of fog on any nights of the murders. This myth adds atmosphere to our gothic fantasy as we prefer to think of JTR as a well dressed Gentleman and love to dream up supernatural Dracula type explanations as Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde plays down the street. Sherlock Holmes is also soon to appear on the scene. All this and more creates the myth that titillates our imaginations. While not immune to romance, I’m interested in science. I want answers. I want DNA or fingerprints or documents or belongings that once and for all identify the killer. I want this savage unmasked with a photograph dining on kidneys and wine if necessary yet if such a thing did occur my (our) interest would deflate like a balloon and sites like the Casebook would dry up like 19th century police reports. If the mystery remains, the research & books & websites will continue 100 years from now and 100 years from then……..for now let’s keep digging……………
P.S. By the way, I’m a Southern American if you couldn’t guess by my writing. I do have a few fancy U.K. friends though.
Comments accepted at greg_seitz_king@yahoo.com
GBS
First off let me apologize for tendencies to purple prose and veering down Church Lane tangents. I’ll try to keep my offbeat ramblings to a minimum. Let me also say that I have performed no original research and will here only offer musings as simply another JTR enthusiast. Also, to avoid deadwood, everything I state in this article can be assumed to be my opinion and nothing more. I won’t say I think, I believe, in my opinion etc.. every time as this will be understood. If the tone seems didactic keep this in mind.
I have just completed Philip Sudgen’s excellent book as well as read most of the dissertations on the casebook site. I do not consider myself a Ripperologist but simply one who has had a recurring interest in the case over several decades and tends to read a great deal when the virus metastasizes. For some reason, this shackled obsession has recently resurfaced.
I found several of the dissertations to be brilliant to the point of absurdity. I found the essay about the other brother or cousin Jew (Cohen) to be the most clever. It’s almost certainly too complex to be true but in general Cohen or Kaminski is one of my top 2 suspects. The imaginative writer weaves Jewish paranoia, extortion (award money), a schizophrenic scapegoat brother and family tyranny into a complex labyrinth.
Although less interesting, the exhaustive timeframe analysis of the Chapman murder ear witness is an excellent exercise in deductive reasoning. Minutes are dissected, witnesses analyzed, walking routes timed, clock angles perused, voice projections surmised etc.. to the point of weariness. I personally believe it’s irrelevant as I support the doctor/coroner and believe Chapman died at 3 or 4 in the morning and therefore all supposed witness testimony at 05:30 is a moot point. There are two other really good essays analyzing the wounds of poor Catherine Eddowes; one is a preposterous but creative analysis purporting every slice as a distinct occult signal, the other a scientific run through of exactly how and in what order the wounds were executed. The most compelling dissertation however wasn’t particularly brilliant or interesting except it named a new (to me) suspect. I believe the name was James Hardiman, a horse meat man or what they called cat’s meats at the time. Basically a butcher who lived in the vicinity, who’s mother lived at 29 Hanbury street at one time, who had a grievance as a wife and child had syphilis etc..(blaming the whores!)…I agree with the author that further research on this individual could prove quite fruitful.
Anyone capable of such monstrous cruelty would have shown psychopathy(sociopathy, anti social personality or whatever the psychologist’s are calling it this week) signs throughout his life. This Hardiman fits who I surmise as the killer – a working class bloke – not terribly educated - a psycho who lives in WhiteChapel and knows how to slice and dice. Not terribly exotic (no Toff’s here) but most likely true. The dissertation in question and I should give it more credit, is quite thoughtful and proposes an accomplice in the form of a disgruntled former cop. This cannot be summarily dismissed. The hour delay for the apron and Ghoulston Street graffito is perplexing and the writer surmises JTR ran across the courtyard straight into the house of said cop. Here he did his tidying up under the approving eye of his accomplice. The partner scenario is leant credence by JTR’s ghostlike disappearance’s within minutes of Eddowe’s discovery. The Hanbury street murder is more plausible with a lookout present and the Stride murder witness Schwartz even mentioned 2 men. I suppose it’s also possible JTR spent nearly an hour hiding in doorways etc… as cops and volunteers scurried about while he cleaned his hands and avoided detection. Despite all this, I don’t believe the accomplice theory. It’s rare to have 2 psycho’s operating in tandem. The California Hillside Stranglers were such a team so it can’t be ruled out off hand. I suppose it’s also possible JTR spent nearly an hour hiding in doorways etc… as cops and volunteers scurried about while he cleaned his hands and avoided detection. Whatever the case, the apparent time delay before the graffiti and apron were found offer the imaginative a blank canvas on which to paint further theories.
My mind overflows with details. Where did he keep the knife? Did he carry a parcel or bag? I doubt this. Did he wear rubber soled shoes to muffle footsteps? How many layers of clothing did he wear? Did he have a special laundry bag for organs? What about disguises? Did he wear gloves? Did he live alone? What did he do with the viscera? Why did he remove organs? This could just be a sociopathic compulsion that he himself didn’t understand. Maybe it was the common trophy taking that we’ve seen with modern serial killers. How did he clean the blood and where did he discard the rags? If cohabitating, his fellow lodgers must have seen, heard and/or smelled something. Did they keep quiet? If you buy the multi Jew theory, this is precisely the argument. Was JTR an Irishman trying to engender riots and or a pogrom against the Jews? How much planning was involved? Did he arrange meetings with the women in advance? Did he get a bit drunk for nerve but not drunk enough to leave clues or compromise escape? The questions go on forever – this is one reason the case so compels.
Also, as an aside, I give no credence to the Maybrick diary and there’s an excellent dissertation that trashes the whole idea. Another detail that perplexes me is the lack of screams and apparent lack of victim struggle. Typically, if someone is strangling you with their bare hands, the natural instinct is to scratch and claw and rip at those hands. This evidence would show up on the victims as well as JTR. I believe Stride has some strange blood spots on the back of one hand and Mary Kelly had a minor indication of hand/wrist scratches but not so the others. One clever fellow mentioned the possibility of the use of chloroform but this seems a little too sophisticated. I wonder if he used a ligature which might reduce struggle marks? I have no answers and invite further discussion.
Another big question is of course the letters. I tend to believe all were hoaxes but it depends on my ever changing analysis of the bloody apron and graffiti. If one believes JTR scrawled the infamous Juwes message, then for consistencies sake, one should also believe he sent at least 1 letter. In other words he liked taunting, giving clues and throwing cops off the chase. It appears the From Hell letter and the Juwes scribble both indicate the same uneducated hand but since graffiti wasn’t left at any of the other murder sites, I tend to reject the letters outright. JTR certainly had plenty of time to leave a manifesto on the wall of 13 Miller’s Court but did no such thing. Graffiti may have nothing to do with letters but I posit them as opposite sides of the same equation. That is of course if one accepts Mary Kelly as a JTR victim. I can’t believe someone could copy cat to such a level of depravity. Is it reasonable to believe there were 2 people capable of eviscerating women in the London East End at this time? I think not. That brings us to the canonical 5. Although I also vacillate on this, I don’t consider Tabram a Ripper victim. The fact of 2 weapons more than the stab versus incision wounds is the anomaly. I can’t see JTR deciding “Oh I’ll jam this dagger into her sternum and then get out my little pocket knife and start whacking her like Anthony Perkins in Psycho”. I know MO’s can morph but this seems a stretch. It’s more likely that 2 angry drunken sailors killed her for some perceived slight in military inspired overkill frenzy. My position on Stride swings back and forth as well. There are strong arguments both ways. The increasing daring of leaving a corpse in a highly trafficked area is there as is the finger pointing at the Jews yet the domestic scenario is also laudable. Was JTR interrupted? It’s also a decent hall to Mitre Square in the time frame allotted. This one’s a hard nut to crack. Yet another quality dissertation convincingly proposed Stride as a victim of a domesticate dispute gone bad? Again, lack of screams indicates she may have been familiar at least with Broad Shoulders unless JTR snuck in quickly after BS left? I find in nearly impossible to decide on this case. I can live with the 5 but I do reject the copy cat murders of the following year or 2. Can’t say I can give a decent reason why.
After my last JTR studies I came away convinced that Tumblety was the lone culprit. I no longer hold this view, main reason?, the description. Whether one believes anyone ever gave a legitimate description of JTR, this huge, bushy faced American charlatan would have stood out like Oscar Wilde at a labor rally. Was he capable of disguise, humped over and masking his loud braggadocios nature on murder nights? I suppose it’s possible but it doesn’t fit the serial killer personality. He appears a homosexual con man, certainly full of baloney but not the type to commit cruel murders on leisurely weekends. Homosexual serial killers tend to kill men or boys rather than women. He also doesn’t seem the type to disappear in a crowd. He was a huge self promoter – can’t see him disappearing into the shadows. A fancily dressed quack described as between 5’10” and 6’2” fits no description and he supposedly had a mustache the length of Ten Bells to Hanbury Street. Again, I see the killer as the most nondescript individual imaginable, a guy you wouldn’t notice even if standing on his head in Berner street. I’m not sure what to make of the Batty Street Lodger stories. One writer found no evidence that Tumblety lived on said street and even surmised that the witness Israel Schwartz lived there. The stories of bloody shirts were also explored and somewhat explained away. I can’t imagine someone clever enough to leave no clues and few credible witnesses would throw a bloody shirt at his landlady for cleaning. My take is that the Batty Street stuff can be ignored unless some real evidence is uncovered.
I read where a modern profiler considered JTR a disorganized killer. I disagree. One must consider several factors. Few mention the thrill this killer experienced through the bold and daring nature of his acts. Sure, some crimes were committed in isolated locales but all areas were commonly traversed. To carve someone up in a crowded backyard with people literally all around takes astounding nerve as does the Mitre Square event where policeman and volunteers surrounded. Again, accomplice? The taunting of the police and the thrill of danger gave the perpetrator a feeling of superiority as we’ve seen replayed in modern serial killers like Ted Bundy. Pare that with the fact that the killer disappeared as if a phantom, left no evidence (not even bloody footprints), and carried off a knife, some lukewarm organs and perhaps a towel for cleaning. He also knew how to slit a throat so that the blood didn’t cover him. This is a planner and furtive sort. His murders may have been crimes of opportunity but he knew what he wanted to do and how to get the heck out of there. I suppose one could fit a knife, kidney and piece of cloth in a big pocket but there had to be some visible blood yet witnesses of a blood spattered escapee don’t exist. One must also keep in mind that the perpetrator had the charm to disarm (figuratively) the victims even when they were on red alert. He had to seem the last guy in the world who was about to strangle them. Even the Miller Court massacre took astounding nerve. Who’s to say the landlord or Mr. Hutchison or another John or a friend might not come knocking while the psychopath was carving up the poor woman; a knock on the door or a look in the window and he’s finished. This was no slobbering, gutter licking, masturbating maniac like Aaron Kosminski. Kosminski was most likely schizophrenic which is not the illness usually associated with sociopathic serial killers. I’ve seen a great deal of writing mentioning lunatics or raving madmen. The authorities weren’t familiar (at least academically) with these antisocial personality types in the 19th century and it appears they were looking for a bloody, drooling, knuckle dragging Mr. Hyde shuffling down the street with a knife in one hand and his penis in the other. Instead they should have been looking for the mild mannered mute who swept the floor of the slaughterhouse or loaded horsemeat onto the shelves or the bespectacled tailor’s assistant who rarely spoke a word but was articulate when engaged. I expect if the real JTR stood up, the whole of East London would scream “you’ve got to be kidding me!”
I also share Sudgen’s dismay that fingerprinting wasn’t utilized and only minimal photography. Fingerprinting was somewhat in its infancy although known by law enforcement and photographs of the crime scene were only carried out in the Mary Kelly case. I would imagine the modern researcher’s task would be much easier if detailed photographs or fingerprint records could be analyzed. I personally can’t fathom why both of these CSI type practices weren’t exhaustively utilized?
This case fascinates for 3 main reasons. The first and obvious one is the whodunit? We love a mystery and this one has more roads and back alleys than Whitechapel itself. The second is our morbid curiosity due to the deranged horror of the crimes. What kind of monster could do this to any other human being? Why in God’s name is he slicing up the abdomen? Isn’t a slit throat enough? Lastly, many of us have a romantic image of this sordid gas lit human sardine can that was East London 1888. I imagine we’d all be disgusted if transported there today what with the grime, stench, overcrowding and filth of early industrial living. But our delusional sense of nostalgia knows no bounds as the relatively primitive pre-electrical conditions and savage poverty draw us in. One frequently sees paintings of the fog shrouded thoroughfares yet as far as I know, besides a rainy evening during the Double event, there’s no mention of fog on any nights of the murders. This myth adds atmosphere to our gothic fantasy as we prefer to think of JTR as a well dressed Gentleman and love to dream up supernatural Dracula type explanations as Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde plays down the street. Sherlock Holmes is also soon to appear on the scene. All this and more creates the myth that titillates our imaginations. While not immune to romance, I’m interested in science. I want answers. I want DNA or fingerprints or documents or belongings that once and for all identify the killer. I want this savage unmasked with a photograph dining on kidneys and wine if necessary yet if such a thing did occur my (our) interest would deflate like a balloon and sites like the Casebook would dry up like 19th century police reports. If the mystery remains, the research & books & websites will continue 100 years from now and 100 years from then……..for now let’s keep digging……………
P.S. By the way, I’m a Southern American if you couldn’t guess by my writing. I do have a few fancy U.K. friends though.
Comments accepted at greg_seitz_king@yahoo.com
GBS
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