Two things that don't make sense!

[Steve F]

Why did MJK landlord allow her to get so far behind with her rent and why did George Hutchinson stand around outside MC in the pouring rain and cold weather?
Anyone
Steve

[Tom_Wescott]

1. He was a nice guy or she was an accomodating girl.

2. When a man loves a woman, he'll stand out in the pouring rain, if that's the way she says it ought to be. Or at least that's Michael Bolton's take on the matter.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Chris Scott]

Hi Steve
Two interesting points but, sadly, at this remove in time, probably unfathomable.
The reasons for McCarthy allowing Kelly to run up arrears to the tune of 29 shillings can only be guessed at and would, to a large extent, depend on McCarthy's character, which we cannot know. There are many things about the McCathy property empire - such as how many properties he had etc- that are unknown. Also it not entirely certain how "hands on" McCarthy was in the running of the properties. Some press accounts imply that it was Mrs Mccarthy who ran the property side of things.
It is possible that McCarthy may have been a charitable soul and, almost certainly knowing that Barnett had left and that Kelly had little or no income, tried to get what little he could. On the morning of 9 November he sent Thomas Bowyer round to see if he could get any money from Kelly, but, again, we do not know how vigorously, or how often the arrears had been pursued in the days and weeks leading up to the murder.
There is another, but again unproven, possibility. This would paint Mccarthy as heartless and mercenary. The fact that this amount of arrears was outstanding we only know from McCarthy's statement. He must have realised that in the aftermath of the murder and police investigation the room would for a time at least be unrentable and therefore producing no income. Could it be that McCarthy either invented or exaggerated the arrears in the hope of some tenuous clam for legal recompense? Pure speculation, but, in the absence of any evidence as to McCarthy's character, as possible as any other.

With regard to Hutchinson, I think his motives for standing around outside Millers Court for somwehere in the region of three quarters of an hour after he had allegedly seen Kelly enter her room with a man, are somewhat easier to fathom. In Abberline's report on his interview with Hutchinson two facts are mentioned, neither of which occurs in the signed statement. Hutchinson said he had occasionally given Kelly a few shillings and had known her about 3 years. This means he had, if this is true, known her twice as long as Barnett, who met her at Easter 1887. Again these statements can be interpreted in a variety of ways. If Hutchinson were of a charitable nature, he may have taken pity on Kelly or even have been a long term friend who supported her in a modest way when he could. Alternatively, it is possible that Hutchinson had been a casual client of Kelly's and had paid for her sexual favours on occasion. The other thing we must not foregt is that Hutchinson was homeless for the night, having got back to Whitechapel too late to sleep at the Victoria Home. Even if he had not been hoping to share Kelly's bed, it is possible he saw an opportunity to get a roof over his head for the night.

Speculations like these, interesting though they may be, are both unprovable and open up in their turn so many other questions.
Was Hutchinson in regular touch with Kelly, did he know Barnett and did he know Kelly was now living alone in the room?

Chris

[joelhall]

There is another, but again unproven, possibility. This would paint Mccarthy as heartless and mercenary. The fact that this amount of arrears was outstanding we only know from McCarthy's statement. He must have realised that in the aftermath of the murder and police investigation the room would for a time at least be unrentable and therefore producing no income. Could it be that McCarthy either invented or exaggerated the arrears in the hope of some tenuous clam for legal recompense? Pure speculation, but, in the absence of any evidence as to McCarthy's character, as possible as any other.

ive favoured this scenario for a while. my guess is that as kelly was intestate, he was hoping some next of kin or family would settle up. given this high amount im always surprised he wasnt asked why, or put under suspicion (during the 1800s, the theft of very low amounts could send you to the gallows, cant recall the exact amounts).

silly as this sounds, i have before wondered, especially given his late testimony, & (overly?)detailed description, whether hutchinson was an alias used by fleming?

[perrymason]

Those are 2 good questions, although the answer to one can be surmised fairly easily. Only George Hutchinson said he stood in the rain watching the court,.. Sarah Lewis saw a man wearing a wideawake hat watching the court. Only GH said he walked from Romford that day. ONLY GH saw a man with Astrakan cuffs that night with Mary Kelly, and only GH and Carrie Maxwell said they saw Mary Kelly out of her room and alive after 11:45pm November 8th. GH's suspect is removed from being suspect of record by Nov 15th, and as of the 16th, the police sought a man with a Blotchy complexion seen with Mary before midnight on the 8th. I think on the whole, George is left as inexplicable as Carrie, but with much the same level of credibility.

On the arrears, McCarthy testified that arrears were obtained "as best one could", and he wasnt really in the business of a nightly doss house. As a landlord with tenants on a weekly or monthly lease,...Marys name was on Room 13's, you almost have to let them be deliquent for consecutive months before you could take that to small claims court or have them locked out, Mary was the equivalent of 3-4 weeks or so behind....but notice that Marys key was apparently lost, and he knew her window was broken in two places, and he didnt seem obliged to fix that for them. Not even after Joe left. If he was securing "other things" in payment from Mary, she would have had a key by now, and likely a fixed window.

She/and Joe, may have made partial payments on some months and just accumulated the arrears over a longer period than we surmise.

Best regards.

[joelhall]

perhaps the money was added for other things, such as damage & the lost key?

[Chris Scott]

One other possibility:
As McCarthy's shop was right next door it is possible that Kelly actually shopped there and maybe McCarthy extended credit to his tenants

[jmenges]

We only hear that Kelly was in arrears from McCarthy. If for some reason you do not find his word trustworthy, then that opens the possibility that she may not have been in arrears, and McCarthy sent Bowyers to collect a percentage of her earnings from her previous night's work. That he was essentially running a brothel out of Miller's Court.

Shameless plug, but we discussed this very topic on the last podcast: 'Dorset Street- Fiona Rule on The Worst Street in London'

https://www.rippernet.com

JM

[Supe]

JM,

A second shameless plug: the idea McCarthy was getting a cut of Mary's nightly take is discussed here: Time is on My Side in a disseration by . . . oh someone or other.

I think it is a misconception by some, however, that the 29s debt represented seven weeks without paying. More likely, once Joe lost his fish porter job the pair came up a bit short every week. A landlord who is getting most of his rent each week may well let things slide. And, as mentioned, the arrears might also have included estimated costs for the window repairs and so on.

Don.

[The Good Michael]

Don,

Good article, but please don't use 'matutinal schedule' again. It makes me think of monks with tonsures and I'm so trying to forget my Catholicism.

Thanks,

Mike

[jmenges]

Yes, Don. Thanks very much for providing the link to your dissertation. Recommended reading.

It makes me wonder about the possibility that exists of McCarthy actually entering Kelly's room prior to the police arriving on the scene.

JM

[Mitch Rowe]

Why did MJK landlord allow her to get so far behind with her rent and why did George Hutchinson stand around outside MC in the pouring rain and cold weather?
Anyone
Steve

Well Mrs Richardson was keeping an old Woman out of charity.
Hutchinson most likely lied.

[Mike Covell]

Many years ago, when I was a virile young man, I was dating a country girl who loved horseriding. She would take me to the stables and I would stand by the paddock come rain or shine to watch her. This was to ensure she never came to any harm, and if she did fall off the horse, I was there to help her.
I did this in the rain becuase of the way I felt about her and suspect that's what happened here.


(In hindsight I should have let her go on her own )

[Salome]

[QUOTE=Chris Scott;41212]
The reasons for McCarthy allowing Kelly to run up arrears to the tune of 29 shillings can only be guessed at and would, to a large extent, depend on McCarthy's character, which we cannot know. There are many things about the McCathy property empire - such as how many properties he had etc- that are unknown. Also it not entirely certain how "hands on" McCarthy was in the running of the properties.


Actually quite a lot has been uncovered about the McCarthy operation by Fiona Rule in her book. My personal opinion is that he was a ruthless businessman who made a living from exploiting his vulnerable neighbours, not the kind of chap who lets someone off paying the rent. As for Hutchinson, I think he was probably a customer of Mary Jane's who may have been a little bit obsessed with her. Why did McCarthy let MJK off? I don't believe he did, I believe he was running a brothel but didn't want it to be widely publicised so the rent arrears were invented. Another possibility is that there was a connection between McCarthy and Kelly other than landlord/tenant which enabled her to live there rent-free and which ended when she brought home her punter on that fateful November night.

[Robert]

I'm not sure about McCarthy inventing the arrears. Wouldn't there have been a rent book? What if the police had asked to see it?

Maybe Joe, before he lost his job, had been slipping McCarthy some stolen fish. Maybe that's why he was sacked. Afterwards, McCarthy hung on to see if Joe could get him some fruit.