Did Schwartz and Lawende Describe the Same Man?

[FrankO]

Hi c.d.,

I didn't mean to imply the descriptions were necessarily inaccurate. It's just that we have no way of knowing if they were accurate or not, so, we shouldn't forget that they needn't have been. From experience we do know, however, that witness descriptions are generally unreliable. One witness may describe a person entirely differently than the next one, and inaccurately, too. One time, a couple of years ago, I experienced it myself. I managed to give a rather inaccurate description of a man I had only seen about 15 minutes before. Another thing, obviously, is that people tend to notice and remember striking features far easier than general ones. Furthermore, the conditions under which the sightings took place were far from ideal. Therefore, I tend to think the descriptions are of no use, really. But again, that's just my take.

As to broad shoulders and sailor-like, they may describe the same characteristic, but certainly not necessarily. A sailor just doesn't always have broad shoulders.

All the best,
Frank

[FrankO]

Hi Ben,

Although your observation may very well be true, it doesn’t address the point of accuracy. And, obviously, what you wrote is of no use to us anyway, since we can’t make the extraction from the Tower Hamlets you suggest. But at least it’s an observation that is well and clearly put!

BTW, I’ve been fine, thanks! And yourself?

Cheers,
Frank

[c.d.]

Hi c.d.,

Your suggestion is based on the notion that both descriptions were quite accurate and you seem to see them as somewhat outstanding. Unfortunately, there’s no reason to think that they were particularly accurate, and they weren’t especially outstanding either. In fact, I would say that, except for perhaps the reddish neckerchief mentioned in Lawende’s case, the descriptions are rather general. Fair complexion, dark moustache and peaked cap were all very common features, just like I imagine a height of about 5’6” was.

If they both would have been describing an old man of about 6’, wearing glasses, carrying a walking stick and dressed in a white suit, I would be inclined to think they were very likely describing the same man.

So, you get it, I don't think the similarity between those descriptions is of much use, if any. But that's just me.

All the best,
Frank

Hi Frank,

I see your point. Still, both witnesses agreed on five characterstics (I am including their description of heighth since it is so close). You are right that these characteristics would have been fairly commonplace. Still five out five ain't bad. What makes you believe that the descriptions were not accurate?

Also, would broad shoulders and sailor like describe the same characteristic?

c.d.

[Ben]

Hi Frank,

For what it's worth, I made the following observation over on the Stride thread:

I'll try it this way: If you examine the points of similiarity (general though they may be) between the Lawende and Schwartz descriptions and come up with a generic suspect that encompasses only the similarities (i.e. at the exclusion of red neckerchief, pepper and salt etc which Schwartz didn't mention), and extract from Tower Hamlets anyone fitting that description who was on the streets when the double event was being perpetrated, you'd have extracted a minority group.

While the vast majority of the population will meet some of the criteria, only a minority will meet all of it, even though "all" in this case didn't amount to very much at all.

Best regards,
Ben

[FrankO]

Did they see the same man?

Hi c.d.,

Your suggestion is based on the notion that both descriptions were quite accurate and you seem to see them as somewhat outstanding. Unfortunately, there’s no reason to think that they were particularly accurate, and they weren’t especially outstanding either. In fact, I would say that, except for perhaps the reddish neckerchief mentioned in Lawende’s case, the descriptions are rather general. Fair complexion, dark moustache and peaked cap were all very common features, just like I imagine a height of about 5’6” was.

If they both would have been describing an old man of about 6’, wearing glasses, carrying a walking stick and dressed in a white suit, I would be inclined to think they were very likely describing the same man.

So, you get it, I don't think the similarity between those descriptions is of much use, if any. But that's just me.

All the best,
Frank

[Ben]

Hi CD,

On balence, I tend to think they were. It was discussed in some depth here:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=745&page=13&highlight=commonplace

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=745&page=17&highlight=statistical

[DVV]

Hello cd,
the problem here is that the suspects described by PC Smith and William Marshall were also similar to Schwartz and Lawende's men.
Marshall's suspect is given as 5'6, rather stout, wearing a round cap with a small peak, and middle-aged.
PC Smith's suspect is a little bit taller, 5'7 or 8, wears a deerstalker hat, but is said to be around 28 years old...

A difficult problem, so, often discussed (including by the contemporary police officials) and never solved.

However I see a major discrepancy between PC Smith and Marshall, on one hand, and Schwartz/Lawende on the other.
Smith describes the man having a "respectable appearance" and Marshall "a clerk" (Marshall explicitely states that the man did not look like a sailor).

But both Schwartz and Lawende's suspect appear to be somehow rough, and this may be significant.

Amitiés,
DVV

[c.d.]

I was looking at the witness descriptions here on the boards and was struck by the descriptions of Schwartz and Lawende. They both seem to be describing the same man. Both give his age as 30. They differ on heighth, 5'5" versus 5"7", but I don't consider the difference to be significant. They both describe the man as having a fair complexion and a brown mustache. They both say that he was wearing a peaked hat. Schwartz describes the man as having broad shoulders and Lawende uses the term sailor-like. That could mean that they were describing a man who was phyically strong in appearance. Nothing in their descriptions contradicts each other.

Did they see the same man?

c.d.