Did Schwartz and Lawende Describe the Same Man?

[Fisherman]

That it would, Ben! And I was not saying that I suceeded to prove that Lawende´s guy and Schwartz´s ditto were not one and the same. I can not prove such a thing. I can´t even disprove it.
What I meant was solely that I managed to convince you that a cutaway jacket did not need to have tails in them days, an issue that became a battle ground in itself on that thread. Nothing more than that.
...and since I don´t recommend victory dancing myself, I promise to try and keep off it. It came about during the "snappy" stage, and I am sorry I was not able to resist it.

All the best!

Fisherman

[Ben]

Maybe I am overenthusiastic about it, but it does look like an argument won to me.

If your argument involved trying to distance Lawende's man from that of Schwartz, you certainly did not win - quite the reverse. I'm saddened that you'd do a little victory dance as a result of my saying "I grant ye", however.

Not that I view these discussions in terms of "winning" and "losing", because that would be infantile, wouldn't it?

[Fisherman]

Ben writes:

"You won no such argument."

...which is why I quote Bens post 412 from the "What´s the compelling feature"-thread:

"It could have lacked tails, Fish, I grant ye"

Maybe I am overenthusiastic about it, but it does look like an argument won to me. And incidentally, I try not to jump from bridges or invest in Harakiri swords when I loose arguments.

All the best,

Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Absolutely, Suzi - and please take into account that I am NOT trying to establish that the two guys were one and the same. On the contrary. But since an open mind should go before one´s preferences, there you are...

The best!

Fisherman

[Ben]

Fish, it's when you make assinine comments like:

"I won the argument about cutaway jackets"

...that you tend to give the game away a little and make it more obvious that you're trying to point score.

You won no such argument.

[Suzi]

Hi Fisherman-

Thanks for that link-I guess the white/black thread count in the various types of 'salt and pepper' would account for a mulitude of hues-then of course the light,(or lack of it) conditions would also add to the confusion.

Suzi

[Fisherman]

Let´s try and refrain from making our differences everybodys business this time, Ben. I know my argument was challenged, but I also know that I won the argument about cutaway jackets having tails at allt times or not. Therefore it applies in the discussion, and it was offered in response to Kenseis post, not to you.

The best,

Fisherman

[Ben]

Yes, it is kind of strange that I fail to give up my convictions at your will, Ben, is it not?

I'm not asking you to, Fisherman. I'm simply cautioning against dredging up long tedious arguments and then repeating the "old" argument as though it were never challeged. One can avoid a lot of anger and thread-derailments that way.

[Fisherman]

Here is a link to an internet page with a "salt and pepper" blazer that is very dark:

http://sharongallagher.net/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/SaltPepperBlazerBlack.291210951_std.jpg

The best,

Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Hi Suzi!

Some time back, Sam Flynn published a picture of a very dark "salt and pepper" jacket. The variety it stretches over is very big, I believe - once you have mingling spots in different shades of white, black or grey, it seems you are entitled to the term "salt and pepper".

The best,

Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Ben writes:

"Oh my goodness, do you really want to go here again?"

Yes, it is kind of strange that I fail to give up my convictions at your will, Ben, is it not? But there you are.
Incidentally, maybe I should remind you that the last time over we had this discussion, you set out claiming that all cutaway jackets had tails, but ended up admitting that I was right when I stated that they need not have any tails at all in them days.

"Stop following me around."

Ben, this is not me answering a post of yours - it is you answering a post of mine.

The best,

Fisherman

[Suzi]

Hi all-
Just jumping in to clarify 'salt and pepper' tweed/cloth pattern and overall effect.The initial impression would be mid to light rather than dark.




Suzi

[Ben]

Oh my goodness, do you really want to go here again?

Schwartz' police account, as detailed by Donald Swanson, said nothing about the broad-shouldered man having a respectable appearance. That appeared in The Star, which made other claims that were in direct contrast to the statement. We have absolutely no reason for heeding one newspaper on this point whilst ignoring the police statement. He said nothing about the man wearing a cutaway anywhere, and he said nothing about the man's coat being close-fitting, anywhere.

And going through the subject some time back, I discovered that a popular new garment in USA back in the 1880:s was a short cutaway jacket, apparently with no tails and looking more or less exactly what Schwartz

If a cutaway doesn't have tails, then a Victorian man observing it at a distance in darkended conditions will not refer to it as a cutaway. A cutaway observed in those conditions could only have been very conspicuously a cutaway. If you're claiming that the "cutaway" in the photograph looked anything like the jacket worn by Schwartz's man, then you can't use it to argue against a comparison with the Mitre Square sighting, since it resembled the loose-fitting jacket worn by Lawende's man. That's essentially another one of your "outs" gone, for if the experts chime in and say that the sort of jacket featured in that photograph counts as a cutaway (and one that would be readily distinguished as such), it will be apparent immediately that Lawende's man could have worn such a garment. The garment you were referening was not "tight-fitting" either.

Add to this the fact that no report, police- or press, speaks of the latter as a man with a respectable appearance, and I think there is every reason to tell Schwartz´s man apart from Lawendes!

I think that's absolute nonsense, and I'm shocked that you'd consider dredging up such an acrimonious argument again.

Stop following me around.

[Fisherman]

Kensei asks:

" I'm just curious as to whether anyone thinks a "salt and pepper" coat could be described as being "dark" if glimpsed in fast and shadowy circumstances."

Absolutely, Kensei - "salt and pepper" can describe a variety of colours, and certainly a very darkish one too.

BUT! I think that Schwartz´s and Lawendes guys were not the same at all. One of my main reasons for this is that the press variety (and I realize that the press has it´s faults, being a newspaper journalist myself ...) has Schwartz describing his man as respectably dressed.

To my mind, Schwartz´s man could well be exactly the same man that Marshall described as looking like a clerk. What seems to differ inbetween the two is that Marshall talks of a black cutaway jacket, wheras Schwartz mentions, I believe, a short, black jacket. And going through the subject some time back, I discovered that a popular new garment in USA back in the 1880:s was a short cutaway jacket, apparently with no tails and looking more or less exactly what Schwartz - who spoke no English, and would not have been aquainted with the term "cutaway" - described: a short jacket.

Moreover, the fashion of the 1880:s stated that the clothes should be very tight-fitting! This means that if Schwartz´s man WAS wearing the type of cutaway I described, it would NOT be comparable with the markedly loose-fitting jacket worn by Lawendes man!

Add to this the fact that no report, police- or press, speaks of the latter as a man with a respectable appearance, and I think there is every reason to tell Schwartz´s man apart from Lawendes!

The best,

Fisherman

[kensei]

Just thought I'd chime in here- It surely must be significant that Schwartz was describing a man he was hurrying away from in a "don't want to get involved" kind of way, and then seconds later he was seriously fleeing from someone he thought was an accomplice. His observations would have been extremely brief and distracted. I do happen to think that he and Lawende described the same man, and that the "peaked cap" and "deerstalker cap" were the same. I'm just curious as to whether anyone thinks a "salt and pepper" coat could be described as being "dark" if glimpsed in fast and shadowy circumstances.