Did Schwartz and Lawende Describe the Same Man?

[Ben]

Yes, it is kind of strange that I fail to give up my convictions at your will, Ben, is it not?

I'm not asking you to, Fisherman. I'm simply cautioning against dredging up long tedious arguments and then repeating the "old" argument as though it were never challeged. One can avoid a lot of anger and thread-derailments that way.

[Fisherman]

Letīs try and refrain from making our differences everybodys business this time, Ben. I know my argument was challenged, but I also know that I won the argument about cutaway jackets having tails at allt times or not. Therefore it applies in the discussion, and it was offered in response to Kenseis post, not to you.

The best,

Fisherman

[Suzi]

Hi Fisherman-

Thanks for that link-I guess the white/black thread count in the various types of 'salt and pepper' would account for a mulitude of hues-then of course the light,(or lack of it) conditions would also add to the confusion.

Suzi

[Ben]

Fish, it's when you make assinine comments like:

"I won the argument about cutaway jackets"

...that you tend to give the game away a little and make it more obvious that you're trying to point score.

You won no such argument.

[Fisherman]

Absolutely, Suzi - and please take into account that I am NOT trying to establish that the two guys were one and the same. On the contrary. But since an open mind should go before oneīs preferences, there you are...

The best!

Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Ben writes:

"You won no such argument."

...which is why I quote Bens post 412 from the "Whatīs the compelling feature"-thread:

"It could have lacked tails, Fish, I grant ye"

Maybe I am overenthusiastic about it, but it does look like an argument won to me. And incidentally, I try not to jump from bridges or invest in Harakiri swords when I loose arguments.

All the best,

Fisherman

[Ben]

Maybe I am overenthusiastic about it, but it does look like an argument won to me.

If your argument involved trying to distance Lawende's man from that of Schwartz, you certainly did not win - quite the reverse. I'm saddened that you'd do a little victory dance as a result of my saying "I grant ye", however.

Not that I view these discussions in terms of "winning" and "losing", because that would be infantile, wouldn't it?

[Fisherman]

That it would, Ben! And I was not saying that I suceeded to prove that Lawendeīs guy and Schwartzīs ditto were not one and the same. I can not prove such a thing. I canīt even disprove it.
What I meant was solely that I managed to convince you that a cutaway jacket did not need to have tails in them days, an issue that became a battle ground in itself on that thread. Nothing more than that.
...and since I donīt recommend victory dancing myself, I promise to try and keep off it. It came about during the "snappy" stage, and I am sorry I was not able to resist it.

All the best!

Fisherman

[Ben]

What I meant was solely that I managed to convince you that a cutaway jacket did not need to have tails in them days

But it wasn't a cutaway in the conventional sense, Fish; the dictionary definition of a cutaway. That's all.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Most likely Schwartz and Lawende did not describe thet same man, and there is abslolutely no reason to even assume that they did.

Both their statements involve elements that are unreliable (meaning elements that usually are very difficult for any witness to estimate): descriptions height etc. They also contain elements like peaked cap, dark clothes and moustache - all elements that would fit hundreds, if not thousands in East End and therefore are totally useless.
Wearing a peaked cap in those days were incredibly commonplace among the male working class, and don't even get me started on the moustache! Just look at ever bloody photograph from the time period.

Now, the only element that are of ANY IMPORTANCE whatsoever - describing an item that stands out from any general description - is the red neckerchief, which only is worn by Lawende's man. Lawende also speaks of a salt-and-pepper jacker which means a jacket that is made out of speckled material and not black. Now, Lawende, wasn't that close to the pair and he only looked at them briefly, but he still managed to specifically determine a salt-and-papper fabric and not black.

Needöess to say, I have no idea why some people insist on why the witness are describing the same man. Debating such things as height etc. is just silly and anyone who has any experience in witness descriptions would know that estimates as these are extremely.

All the best

[Natalie Severn]

Glenn,
I believe that the man described by Mrs Long and PC Smith and I think its the case with Lawende"s man too,all wore a "Deerstalker" hat .That is one with a peak back and front.I dont believe working class men wore such caps.It was a mark of a middle or upper class man---hence the description "shabby genteel".

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Natalie,

There is no mention anywhere that Lawende's man wore a deerstalker.
Lawende said the man wore a cloth peaked cap, which was used by the large majority of the working class population in whole of Europe. That is what the facts say - I don't think we should turn it into something it isn't in an attempt to make a connection.

All the best

[Natalie Severn]

Natalie,

There is no mention anywhere that Lawende's man wore a deerstalker.
Lawende said the man wore a cloth peaked cap, which was used by the large majority of the working class population in whole of Europe. That is what the facts say - I don't think we should turn it into something it isn't in an attempt to make a connection.

All the best

Glenn,
I said that I wasnt sure about Lawende.However I am sure about what Mrs Long said and that was he wore a "deerstalker"-this was most emphatically not a hat worn by the working class.The chap PCSmith saw was also wearing a "deerstalker"---so its unlikely he was of the working class either-as indicated by PC Smith.
All the Best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Sure, Natalie, but we are not talking about the man seen by Mrs Long here. I can't see his relevance for this discussion.

All the best

[Natalie Severn]

Sure, Natalie, but we are not talking about the man seen by Mrs Long here. I can't see his relevance for this discussion.

All the best

ok Glenn point accepted