So who was Jack the Ripper.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello all. I too am new to casebook.

I think JtK was definately a local man; after the frenzied attack on MJKelly, he would definately have been too disoriented to walk too far.

I do believe Mary Kelly was a Ripper victim and wouldn't describe the murders as 'inconsistent' but rather 'progressive'; however, I don't think the murderer focused on her. I think it is more likely that the he knew one of the earlier victims E.G. Tabram, Nichols or maybe Smith?

I agree that someone like Druitt or any other 'middle class, toff' as someone put it, would stand out like a sore thumb in Whitechapel at night!

Regard Dark Teacher

I'd agree with your analysis Dark Teacher..but then I am a Kosminski protaggonist...

Statistically however The Ripper was more likely to have been a Manic- Deppresive ike Druitt than a Schizophrenic like Kosminski...

And clearly we know that gentlemen did slum and walk the streets of Whitechappel and Druit may have had conections in the Eastend...

They are good suspects to start with..

Wecome Dark Teacher

Pirate

[Sam Flynn]

Statistically however The Ripper was more likely to have been a Manic- Deppresive ike Druitt than a Schizophrenic like Kosminski

Hi Jeff,

Well, we don't really know whether Druitt was bipolar or whether Kozminski was actually schizophrenic - but that's by the by. I'm interested in the relative probability that JTR was more likely to be suffering from bipolar disorder as opposed to schizophrenia - I'd be surprised if this were the case.

Is it possible for you to give me some pointers to the data/research in this area, or at least explain exactly what you meant by "more likely"?

Cheers.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff,

Well, we don't really know whether Druitt was bipolar or whether Kozminski was actually schizophrenic - but that's by the by. I'm interested in the relative probability that JTR was more likely to be suffering from bipolar disorder as opposed to schizophrenia - I'd be surprised if this were the case.

Is it possible for you to give me some pointers to the data/research in this area, or at least explain exactly what you meant by "more likely"?

Cheers.

Hi Sam

Re: Kosminski. there is no ascertained proof that Kosminski was Schizophrenic. However given his symtoms..vioces from a force telling him what to do etc...sorry I dont have notes in front of me...schizophrenia would be the most logical conclusion. Certainly my brother who works in the area thought it highly probable when going through the notes.

As far as I remember Druitt claimed he was becoming like mother and there was a family history of depression..I have always had him down as a manic Depressive..certainly his suicide would suggest depression but i'm not certain Druitts mental state has ever been catigorically identified.

I will have a look for the crime figures relating to serial killers, however I remember being surprised that Schizophrenics are actually the rarest and least likely section of mental illness groups to murder. Perhaps because the public perception is that schizophrenics are highly dangerous.

It would therefore follow that if schizophrenics are the least likely section of mental illness to commit murder then the other sections are more likely/probable...however I cant remember off the top of my head whether the statistics i looked at were specific to mental illness or to murders in general.

I will see what I can dig up. All the best

Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Characteristics of homicide perpetrators
Demographic data were available for 126 perpetrators of mentally abnormal homicides (in 4 early cases of infanticide the perpetrator could not be traced). Of these, 86 (68%) were male and 40 (32%) female. Their ages ranged from 14 years to 71 years, with a mean age of 33.6 years (s.d.=13.2). Diagnostically, 55 had a primary schizophrenic disorder, 19 another psychotic disorder, 13 major depressive disorder (primarily from the infanticide group) and 5 a bipolar disorder. Alcohol or substance misuse diagnoses were made in 10 cases. Nine people had organic brain disorders, 11 a primary or secondary personality disorder and 9 intellectual disability. As comorbid conditions were not systematically recorded, the personality and substance misuse problems are almost certainly underestimates of the true prevalence.

Urm well these statistics from New Zealand would appear to contradict what I was saying, however I need to do some more digging and its late..hope you will forgive me some sleep

Yours Jeff

[Damien]

Hi Dark Teacher

And welcome - I don`t like critising newbies (although I am one by myself ), but why do you think he was a local man?

When I take a look at the Double-Event-Night I always think: The Ripper lived in the West of the East End and was on his way home after he killed Stride (and was disturbed). He met Eddowes, killed her, took her apron to transport the organs and went to his home. Finally he recognized the track he left leading directly to his home, in the line Stride-Eddowes-His home. So he went back again and laid down the apron in Goulston Street to lead his track back to the East End again...

Kind Regards,

Damien

By the way: I think he had connections to the East End, maybe his childhood - and maybe this connection could be part of his motive, who knows?

[Varqm]

Just a thought. Frederick William Wilkinson of 55 Flower and Dean St.

[Guest]

It was all about Mary

I agree with the original poster of this thread who stated he thought it was somebody who was involved with Mary Kelly. To me it makes the most sense. All the other victims were older women, women who in those days would've been considered quite old, who the Ripper probably thought of as dispensable. I believe he experimented with them as each attack became more and more brutal. Unlike the other victims, the attack on Mary was indoors and by far more elaborate. For instance the facial mutilation was much more significant and also he took her heart! Why would he suddenly choose a much younger woman for this special attention? I think it was because he was rehearsing with the other women in order to prepare for his final great act of retribution with the young woman he knew and whose beauty he wanted to destroy. This theory also fits in with it being the final murder.

[Fisherman]

A LATER MARY writes:

" Why would he suddenly choose a much younger woman for this special attention? I think it was because he was rehearsing with the other women in order to prepare for his final great act of retribution with the young woman he knew and whose beauty he wanted to destroy. This theory also fits in with it being the final murder."

This is exactly the kind of stuff that I find very hard to swallow. The notion of somebody "practising" on a buch of victims in order to prepare for his planned grand finale. It just does not go down that way, I´m afraid, Mary.

That said, I feel that you may well be right in your assumption that the killer knew Mary! And if he did, and if he was allso the killer known as the Ripper, I believe that we must satisfy ourselves that the motives for the first killing were not to find in anything but the deeds themselves - he killed because he was driven by an urge to mutilate and procure organs. To my mind, it would have had nothing to do with the slaying of Kelly.

I think that if you want to have Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly killed by the same hand (and there are so many similarities inbetween the strikes that the notion is pretty much inescapable), the only reasonable explanation to the series lies in accepting that since the killing of Mary Kelly differed in apparition and age of the victim, as well as in venue and a number of other things, this murder - though performed by the same hand as the others - had a motive that differed from the one represented in the previous killings.

All the best,

Fisherman

[Jeff Leahy]

Lies Statistics and Damn lies

Pooh you Sam, Youve got me going now...it appears that opinion on the subject is not agreed.

Some countries claiming that Schizophrenics are more dangerous than the general population, a some that they are the same and some that they are less dangerous...looks like it depends where you live...don't go to Sweden.

On agreement however is that alcohol is a dangerous contributary factor..

Try these links as Start:

http://lib.bioinfo.pl/meid:214261

http://apahelpcenter.org/articles/topic.php?id=6

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/248841.stm

http://www.dadlnet.dk/dmb/DMB_2004/0404/0404-phd/DMB3688.htm

The quote I left you last night from New Zealannd based around 5 to 6% of the population...

The problem is we dont know how many of the general population are suffering depression. And as I've said Alchohol is a major contributary factor and is a depressive drug..

I think if you want a serious answer its going to take a little time to put together to be honest..I was under the impression that Schizophrenics were the least dangerous group....but is that a percentage of the Schizophrenic group? ie. only 1 in a hundred schizophrenics is likely to commit murder while 2 in a hundred bi-polar sufferers are likely to commit murder?

Not that I'm suggesting this is the case I'm using these figures as an example.

I'm getting myself confused now..I must get some work done catch you later Sam

Pirate

[stevebaker25]

I believe Kelly was a victim of JtR, I think he just took the opportunity to work indoors when he got it...

[Roma]

I don't think Jack chose his victims because they were about 40 : as a serial killer, he might have chosen them for another reason. That's why I think Mary Jane Kelly was one of his victims. I'm really convinced about it and as for me it's interesting to say that he knew Mary. Indeed, if Jack knew Mary Kelly, then it's more difficult to define his motives and it shows that he really had a complex personality.

I know that what I say doesn't help us a lot but, if he had a complex personality, then he might have been mentally ill. However it's not proved that mentally ill people tend to become killers more than "sane people".

Roma

[stevebaker25]

I once read a book by Colin Wilson that said that almost all serial killers known to man took a serious blow the head when they were children...

[mariag]

Roma, why do you assume that Jack chose his victims rather than that they chose him?

He killed prostitutes. Prostitutes have a tendancy to approach strange men and take them to out of the way places where they won't be disturbed.

Can we make room for the idea that he killed middle aged women not because they reminded him of dear old Mum but simly because they were there? And Mary breaks the mold because she was damned unlucky.

I think that in our increasing frustration with the case we make things too complicated.

[Dark Teacher]

Hello all.

I think the murderer was a local man as he seems to have had a good knowledge of the maize of alleyways and courts that was Whitechapel. He also had the ability to fade nicely into the background.

I know that many gentlemen of the time wandered Whitechapel at night, but I just think that it is far more likely that they would have stood out a mile.

There has been some discussion about whether the killer knew MJK, surely in a community such as this with its pubs and lodging houses, everybody would everyone else?

I agree entirely with mariag that we are in danger of over complicating things.

Dark Teacher

[mariag]

I agree that he was a local man--what compelling evidence is there that he wasn't?

Not sure about MJK knowing her killer. Yes, the crimes took place in a small geographic location, but it was very densly populated. So, maybe by sight and maybe not at all. I tend to think that the killer ust got lucky with Mary-finding someone who lived in a room.