JTR's profession

[Busy Beaver]

Then who on earth was Blotchy? Would he have gone out and come back again? It doesn't quite follow what I would have expected The Ripper to have done. I would have thought that if Blotchy was the Ripper, he would have got Mary comfortable and then started to kill her, but at 1.00am she is still singing. It's not until 1.30am that the light goes out. Could Blotchy have started to sober up by then and have been ready to kill? Mary was after all found on the bed in her undergarments, so she had the time to remove outer clothing. That kind of makes more sense, and the cry of murder at 4.00am could well have come from anywhere and not be related at all.

[Abby Normal]

Then who on earth was Blotchy? Would he have gone out and come back again? It doesn't quite follow what I would have expected The Ripper to have done. I would have thought that if Blotchy was the Ripper, he would have got Mary comfortable and then started to kill her, but at 1.00am she is still singing. It's not until 1.30am that the light goes out. Could Blotchy have started to sober up by then and have been ready to kill? Mary was after all found on the bed in her undergarments, so she had the time to remove outer clothing. That kind of makes more sense, and the cry of murder at 4.00am could well have come from anywhere and not be related at all.

Hi busy
If blotchy was her killer and the ripper, and i think its a good chance he was, he would not have left once he had her right where he wanted her. An attractive drunk prostitute with her own place! I mean thats the rippers dream right?
No way he would leave.

I think he was enjoying it, savoring it. And or waiting for things to die down a little bit around the court as it seems there was a bit od activity. He had a pot of ale perhaps he was waiting for her to get drunker and or pass out?

Either way it seems to me neither of them were planning on,leaving any time soon.

[caz]

Hi Abby,

This sounds entirely reasonable to me. But of course, it would have implications for Hutch and his police statement.

I have often wondered if Hutch turned up when he said he did, hoping to find Mary alone and willing to share her bed, but some unknown person [Blotchy] was in the room with her. He waited for the man to leave, but after 45 minutes he gave up. Not hard to imagine his reaction to learning she had been murdered and the unenviable position that put him in. If he had admitted to being at the scene and what he was really doing there, while being unable to say anything at all about who was in Mary's room, what good would it have done him, and would he have been believed? Inventing an earlier encounter with Mary and her 'last man in' would have allowed him to imagine and describe this man, and explain why he followed the couple to Miller's Court. Describing a flashier dresser than Mary would normally attract would have been in line with a customer who was not kicked out after five minutes, but was able to pay for an hour or more.

If Blotchy wasn't the killer, he'd have been in an even worse position than Hutch, having been seen by Mrs Cox entering the room with Mary. Little wonder that he never came forward, killer or not. But would Hutch's position have been that much better? This is why I doubt he'd have made it all up from whole cloth, and put himself so close in time and place to the murder of a woman he claimed to know, just for fifteen minutes of fame. If he was there, but not the killer, it seems his account could well have been a mixture of fact and damage-limiting fiction.

Love,

Caz
X

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

This sounds entirely reasonable to me. But of course, it would have implications for Hutch and his police statement.

I have often wondered if Hutch turned up when he said he did, hoping to find Mary alone and willing to share her bed, but some unknown person [Blotchy] was in the room with her. He waited for the man to leave, but after 45 minutes he gave up. Not hard to imagine his reaction to learning she had been murdered and the unenviable position that put him in. If he had admitted to being at the scene and what he was really doing there, while being unable to say anything at all about who was in Mary's room, what good would it have done him, and would he have been believed? Inventing an earlier encounter with Mary and her 'last man in' would have allowed him to imagine and describe this man, and explain why he followed the couple to Miller's Court. Describing a flashier dresser than Mary would normally attract would have been in line with a customer who was not kicked out after five minutes, but was able to pay for an hour or more.

If Blotchy wasn't the killer, he'd have been in an even worse position than Hutch, having been seen by Mrs Cox entering the room with Mary. Little wonder that he never came forward, killer or not. But would Hutch's position have been that much better? This is why I doubt he'd have made it all up from whole cloth, and put himself so close in time and place to the murder of a woman he claimed to know, just for fifteen minutes of fame. If he was there, but not the killer, it seems his account could well have been a mixture of fact and damage-limiting fiction.

Love,

Caz
X

hi caz
but then why be so adamant you could recognize the man again, give such a detailed description, go out with police looking for him? this is sending the police on a wild goose chase and harms the investigation. not to mention endangering himself even more legally by lying.

also, smacks highly of looking for your 15 minutes of fame.


if I was the police and hutch came to me and just said, I knew mary, I was looking for a place to crash, i went to her place, I heard/saw she was with a man, so I waited for him to leave, he didnt so I got tired of waiting and left.

its helpful to police to know she was with a man alive in her place at 2-3 am.

Its beleivable, helpful, and to me not the least bit suspicious.
hutch has done his civic duty, was honest and truthful and no way can be falsely accused on his testimoney.
and since he cant give a description of the suspect, he would be effectively done with having to have any more involvement.

I just don't see that kind of explanation being viable.

[Ginger]

* He had 20,000 tons of potatoes,2000 sold to America,the rest to anybody including Spitalfield Market buyers but had lots of competition.

It seems remarkable to me that potatoes would be shipped to America. I wonder if "sold to America" meant that US shipping lines, or perhaps the Navy, were buying produce locally to feed their sailors?

[caz]

hi caz
but then why be so adamant you could recognize the man again, give such a detailed description, go out with police looking for him? this is sending the police on a wild goose chase and harms the investigation. not to mention endangering himself even more legally by lying.

also, smacks highly of looking for your 15 minutes of fame.


if I was the police and hutch came to me and just said, I knew mary, I was looking for a place to crash, i went to her place, I heard/saw she was with a man, so I waited for him to leave, he didnt so I got tired of waiting and left.

its helpful to police to know she was with a man alive in her place at 2-3 am.

Its beleivable, helpful, and to me not the least bit suspicious.
hutch has done his civic duty, was honest and truthful and no way can be falsely accused on his testimoney.
and since he cant give a description of the suspect, he would be effectively done with having to have any more involvement.

I just don't see that kind of explanation being viable.

Okay, Abby, so what's your explanation for Hutch coming forward with the statement he gave, in the event that Blotchy was the killer? I thought you believed Hutch was really there that night and was truthful about knowing Mary, but invented the man he claimed to see with her. If that man didn't exist, Hutch would still have been sending the police on a wild goose chase and harming the investigation, wouldn't he? And that would apply whether he was there and seeking to cover his own arse by describing a suspect very unlike himself, or making the whole thing up for his 15 minutes of fame.

Love,

Caz
X

[Abby Normal]

Okay, Abby, so what's your explanation for Hutch coming forward with the statement he gave, in the event that Blotchy was the killer? I thought you believed Hutch was really there that night and was truthful about knowing Mary, but invented the man he claimed to see with her. If that man didn't exist, Hutch would still have been sending the police on a wild goose chase and harming the investigation, wouldn't he? And that would apply whether he was there and seeking to cover his own arse by describing a suspect very unlike himself, or making the whole thing up for his 15 minutes of fame.

Love,

Caz
X

hi Caz

Okay, Abby, so what's your explanation for Hutch coming forward with the statement he gave, in the event that Blotchy was the killer?

15 minutes fame..monetary gain

I thought you believed Hutch was really there that night and was truthful about knowing Mary, but invented the man he claimed to see with her.

he was, I just doubt he actually spoke to mary and saw her with aman-that part is fictional.

If that man didn't exist, Hutch would still have been sending the police on a wild goose chase and harming the investigation, wouldn't he? And that would apply whether he was there and seeking to cover his own arse by describing a suspect very unlike himself, or making the whole thing up for his 15 minutes of fame.

yes exactly. I think he was probably doing both.
I think most likely he was there that night looking for Mary for a place to crash, possible hook up, didn't find her, or she was preoccupied, waited around for her guest to leave (or her return if she was out) then got tired and left. later coming up with aman story for gain.


less likely he was her killer IMHO, but least likely he was telling the total truth.

[Wickerman]

15 minutes fame..monetary gain

Who pays a witness for his police statement, and how much did he get?
If the police really did pay for witness statements, don't you think they'd be lined up, down the street and around the corner by the hundreds?
How much did Cox and Lewis get, who both could recognise their respective suspects if they saw them again?

I just doubt he actually spoke to mary and saw her with aman-that part is fictional.

It is true we only have George's word for it that the woman was Kelly.

Hypothetically

Suppose it wasn't Kelly, she was in her room alone (asleep, or sobering up?)

Hutch saw another couple entering Millers court, and Lewis saw the same couple.
Hutch waited, until he went up the court (by his own admission), and tried the door but it was locked.
He waited for her to come out, around 3:00, she went out and stood outside the Britannia (seen by Kennedy) - the Britannia-man was too drunk, nothing else was doing that night- too wet, to she returned home, picking up Hutch in Dorset st.
He was her killer.

Hutch gave a false description of this couple, the man is described like Joseph Isaacs, and he claims the woman was Kelly.
This misdirects attention away from his loitering.

If Isaacs did actually dress that way (Astrachan trim, & gold watch chain), perhaps Hutch knew him (as he claimed) and tried to fit him up, throwing him under the bus, as Kelly's last client.
It didn't work though, Isaacs was locked up himself in North London.

[Abby Normal]

Who pays a witness for his police statement, and how much did he get?
If the police really did pay for witness statements, don't you think they'd be lined up, down the street and around the corner by the hundreds?
How much did Cox and Lewis get, who both could recognise their respective suspects if they saw them again?



It is true we only have George's word for it that the woman was Kelly.

Hypothetically

Suppose it wasn't Kelly, she was in her room alone (asleep, or sobering up?)

Hutch saw another couple entering Millers court, and Lewis saw the same couple.
Hutch waited, until he went up the court (by his own admission), and tried the door but it was locked.
He waited for her to come out, around 3:00, she went out and stood outside the Britannia (seen by Kennedy) - the Britannia-man was too drunk, nothing else was doing that night- too wet, to she returned home, picking up Hutch in Dorset st.
He was her killer.

Hutch gave a false description of this couple, the man is described like Joseph Isaacs, and he claims the woman was Kelly.
This misdirects attention away from his loitering.

If Isaacs did actually dress that way (Astrachan trim, & gold watch chain), perhaps Hutch knew him (as he claimed) and tried to fit him up, throwing him under the bus, as Kelly's last client.
It didn't work though, Isaacs was locked up himself in North London.

Hi Wick
wow that's quite the scenario.

as Ive mentioned, I find it difficult that lewis and hutch could have seen the same couple that went into the court, but the rest is doable I suppose. However, theres a lot of little speculations going on there-like mary not hooking up with the BGB because he was drunk and the whole Isaacs business. But I do believe this is the first time I have seen you even consider the possibility that hutch was lying (and being Marys killer even!) so Ill take it!

full disclosure-I have softened a bit on hutch too-eventhough I still think most likely he was a lying attention seeker, second most likely her killer and least likely he was telling the complete truth, I now think there is more of chance he was telling the complete truth(I never really even considered this option before)-mainly do to arguments and info put forth by you and others.

[Scorpio]

It is a JTR cliché, but I am certain that Jack was in the slaughter trade. Being a slaughterman offered such a ready alibi that , despite being stopped and briefly questioned numerous times, as I believe was the case, the police never had sufficient grounds to hold him. Also, pathological killers commonly seek vicarious pleasure by any legal means whether through employment or leisure activities. Jack would not be wealthy enough to enjoy middle class pursuits like hunting, and violent pornography was not readily available I believe ( people will probably disagree with that assumption ).

[Wickerman]

Hi Wick
wow that's quite the scenario.

as Ive mentioned, I find it difficult that lewis and hutch could have seen the same couple that went into the court, but the rest is doable I suppose. However, theres a lot of little speculations going on there-like mary not hooking up with the BGB because he was drunk and the whole Isaacs business. But I do believe this is the first time I have seen you even consider the possibility that hutch was lying (and being Marys killer even!) so Ill take it!

I'm sure you've been around when I've criticized most of those anti-Hutch theories as being ill conceived, and not well thought out.
It isn't that I think Hutch couldn't be the killer, or a liar, I'm sure he could. But, theories must include all what we know (I hesitate to say all the 'facts'), but most of those theories either dismiss Kennedy, or dismiss Bowyer, or make up some unsubstantiated drivel about Hutch. This I can't accept.
If we are going to lynch Hutch, use ALL the available evidence - thats the only way to go.
I'm not trying to suggest the Hypothetical theory was correct, but it uses factual data, or at least accepted testimony, nothing is dismissed.
It was just an exercise.

....full disclosure-I have softened a bit on hutch too-eventhough I still think most likely he was a lying attention seeker, second most likely her killer and least likely he was telling the complete truth, I now think there is more of chance he was telling the complete truth(I never really even considered this option before)-mainly do to arguments and info put forth by you and others.

Whew... er, let me sit down a minute....

[Simon Wood]

What facts lead anyone to believe that JtR had a day job?

[Trevor Marriott]

What facts lead anyone to believe that JtR had a day job?

Hi Simon
There are none, its another case of someone asking a question to which there is no answer to.

www trevormarriott.co.uk

[Jon Guy]

What facts lead anyone to believe that JtR had a day job?

Most people had professions, Simon
They may have been out of work frequently, but they generally described themselves as dockers, market workers, carmen, barbers, labourers, chestnut sellers, ships firemen. ...

[Abby Normal]

Most people had professions, Simon
They may have been out of work frequently, but they generally described themselves as dockers, market workers, carmen, barbers, labourers, chestnut sellers, ships firemen. ...

and the fact that the murders happened on weekends and holidays and that the ripper obviously had money in his pocket to convince the victims that he could pay for there services.