A little assistance with a research project.......

[The Station Cat]

Ladies/Gents,

I wonder if anyone could assist me with a little research I'm working on?

I'd be grateful if someone could confirm what address the MOTTRAM family were living at in 1881?

I have been unable to find the father and daughter on the 1891 census. But the mother and son appear to have moved to Bethnal Green by then.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated!!

[GUT]

By 91 daughter may be married.

Dad perhaps dead.

[GUT]

By 91 daughter may be married.

Dad perhaps dead.

Which may also explain the move

[The Station Cat]

By 91 daughter may be married.

Dad perhaps dead.

Daughter married is a plausible theory.

I know William was still alive in 1905 as he's given as the next of kin on Henry's discharge papers from the army he was living at 91 Jersey Street Bethnal Green (prior to that he was living in 44 Nisbet Street, Homerton).

I also know that Eliza was living at 8 Paradise Row Bethnal Green in 1902 (which is right opposite Bethnal Green Police Station), with a man called Richard HUNT (whether he was a lodger or partner I don't know. I assume William and Eliza must have parted ways sometime earlier?).

But at 20:00 hours on Monday the 24th March 1902, he was at 8 Paradise Row (being home on leave from India) when he for reasons unknown he cuts HUNT's throat with a razor and then slashes the back of his neck, which resulted in HUNT spending two weeks in the London Hospital. Being treated by JOHN HAROLD PHILBRICK house surgeon at the London Hospital & JOHN BATE surgeon of J Division.

MOTTRAM was found GUILTY, but that he committed the act in a fit of temporary insanity. Discharged on recognizances. He must have returned back to India as he didn't leave the army until 1905.

Joins East Surrey Regiment as 4369 Pte on the 29th July 1893.

Service.....

Home 29th July 1893 to 13.03.1894 (228 days)

Malta 14.03.1894 to 04.10.1895 (1 year 205 days)

India 05.10.1895 to 27.10.1905 (10 years 22 days)

1902 Appears in the Old Bailey......

https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t19020505-394&div=t19020505-394&terms=HENRY%20MOTTRAM#highlight

Home & discharged from army 28.10.1905

[kjab3112]

Hi Station Cat

Ancestry has a family with those years of birth living at 10 Bath Place, Whitechapel, but there is another son John aged one, like Henry and young Eliza was born in Bethnal Green. William is listed as born in Birmingham and as a cabinet maker

Hope of help

Paul

[The Station Cat]

Hi Station Cat

Ancestry has a family with those years of birth living at 10 Bath Place, Whitechapel, but there is another son John aged one, like Henry and young Eliza was born in Bethnal Green. William is listed as born in Birmingham and as a cabinet maker

Hope of help

Paul

Many thanks Paul, that's a greatly appreciated!!!!

I've come across Bath Place before, I believe it was off Brady Street, opposite Buck's Row?

[kjab3112]

I've looked at the 1901 census: Hunt is listed as a 24 year old boarder with Eliza and William is listed in what I think is a workhouse (but not certain). I can't find William on the 1891 census but he does have a workhouse entry about that time so he may be hidden in a workhouse list somewhere. There were other children including a William (Jr) and Clara. I'd guess William and Eliza split before 1891 as she is listed as head of household although still married.

Paul

[PaulWilliams]

I'm thinking that this is the family listed in the 1871 census at Eastman Street, Bethnal Green. William was born 1845 in Birmingham and employed then as a tin-plate worker. Eliza born 1847, Eliza M born 1868 and Alfred born 1870.

There was a William Mottram, age 55, who died in Bethnal Green in 1901. Is it possible that Henry either didn't know he was dead or listed him as next of kin anyway in the absence of other relatives?

[The Station Cat]

Thanks guys for taking the time to post on my thread, it's very interesting.



I wonder whether William had died in 1902 and that's way Henry was home on leave from India, seems a long way to come on leave otherwise? I also wonder just how much information is retained from these Old Bailey cases, surely information like his father having died would have formed part of the case? Or certainly been brought up by the defence in mitigation?






What I also find interesting is the parish boundaries, Bath Row (if I've got the right one, appears to be in Bethnal Green, certainly appears to have been on J Divisions patch, yet is documented as being on Whitechapel in the 1881 census?
Has anyone got a period map so I can confirm exactly where it was? Wasn't there a bath house near Goulston Street/Angel Alley at one point?
I assume public bath houses were dotted all over the place?

[Joshua Rogan]

Thanks guys for taking the time to post on my thread, it's very interesting.



I wonder whether William had died in 1902 and that's way Henry was home on leave from India, seems a long way to come on leave otherwise? I also wonder just how much information is retained from these Old Bailey cases, surely information like his father having died would have formed part of the case? Or certainly been brought up by the defence in mitigation?






What I also find interesting is the parish boundaries, Bath Row (if I've got the right one, appears to be in Bethnal Green, certainly appears to have been on J Divisions patch, yet is documented as being on Whitechapel in the 1881 census?
Has anyone got a period map so I can confirm exactly where it was? Wasn't there a bath house near Goulston Street/Angel Alley at one point?
I assume public bath houses were dotted all over the place?

Hi SC. I thought you'd been unable to locate a Bath Row in Bethnal Green (there are some in other parts of London)?
If Bath Row = Bath Place then, according to this 1877 parish map

http://mapco.net/parish/parish11.htm

the boundary between Whitechapel and Bethnal Green seems to have run across Bath Street and along most of, then across, Bath Place.

[Elamarna]

Nice find Joshua. Looks like the boundary used Bath Place.
Cat just to be clear Bath Place was on the northern side of Bath street, a very Narrow ally, think of Catherine Wheel alley off of Bishopsgate. It was the first entrance way/turning after entering Bath street from Brady Street.


Steve

[The Station Cat]

Nice find Joshua. Looks like the boundary used Bath Place.
Cat just to be clear Bath Place was on the northern side of Bath street, a very Narrow ally. It was the first entrance way/turning after entering Bath street from Brady Street.


Steve

Many thanks for the link Josh and the exact location Steve.

[The Station Cat]

I also wonder just how much information is retained from these Old Bailey cases, surely information like his father having died would have formed part of the case? Or certainly been brought up by the defence in mitigation?

I wonder if this incident, made the local papers? Would be interesting to if there is any further information included via that source?