IWEC members

[New Waterloo]

I am constantly amazed at the activities of the IWEC in Berner Street and the different positions we all seem to take on what the reality was for Berner Street in general whilst the club was in use. There appears to be more evidence that Berners Street was not a quiet street but to be honest a hive of activity. Evidence suggests that members of the club often disagreed and there were verbal and violent confrontations. There was music and singing and coming and goings till the early hours. This is the important bit. If we are to assume that JTR new the area reasonably well. (A good start I think regardless of our own favorite suspects) then common sense would suggest that JTR would not pick Dutfields yard as a killing location. It would be sheer madness. (of course this does strengthen the case for mad JTR suspects, but any JTR with any sense would have stayed clear of that place. We must look at the evidence first and try to build a picture based on that at least to start with. Let the evidence take us along. In this case the evidence leads us to the question who would kill somebody in that location with such a massive chance of getting caught? A mad man, member or not, a drunk, somebody trying to discredit the club, somebody wanting to kill Stride in particular. A thinking, planning and fully aware JTR would not use this place. Well that is what the evidence would suggest. If it was JTR then he must have been drunk or mad. (suspects please)

Anyway Happy New year to you all. Back to the glass of wine!!

[Michael W Richards]

Im not sure what your objections are here, but;

Both Goldstein and Schwartz walked south down Berner St, passing Mortimer's house.

We know Goldstein did, he was seen by a witness.

So, both Goldstein and Schwartz went to the police with an interpreter friend.

The point is that I believe both men used the same interpreter, Woolf Wess. Goldstein is referred to as a member of the club, so it seems reasonable that he would have access to Woolf, but how does Israel know Woolf?

Goldstein was a traveller. Schwartz, who "had gone out for the day" (Star), seems also to have been a traveller.

As mentioned, Goldstein was a member of the club so likely a regular, and Israel said he was at the market since shortly after noon that day while his wife moved their belongings from somewhere to their new digs.

Did Schwartz also see something? "Before he had gone many yards, however, he heard the sound of a quarrel, and turned back to learn what was the matter,..." (Star).

Im a bit puzzled by your comment, Israel said that he was passing by the gates on the street at around 12:45pm. Goldstein was seen by Fanny Mortimer at her door to the street at around 12:55pm. By Israels account, he would be scurrying on to his new home by that time. If Goldstein had seen something happening just inside the gates when he passed by, perhaps causing him to "hurry on past" the entrance to the yard, that would make the discovery time earlier than is presently accepted. Mr Diemshitz claimed when he arrived at "precisely"..his words, 1am, he discovered the body just inside the entranceway and no-one else was there. However if multiple witnesses were gathered by the dying woman when Goldstein passes around 12:55, then obviously the body was known about before that time.

So, more like the same time that Schwartz gave.

Schwartz says he saw Liz being assaulted around 12:45, so technically she could have been killed just after he scurried on home. Then Goldstein comes by a few minutes later and perhaps sees the men gathered around. Too bad we dont have any proof at all that Israel Schwartz was there at all and saw anything he says he saw, but good that we do have some witnesses that can be corroborated.

Has the penny dropped?

Perhaps you should address that question.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Both Goldstein and Schwartz walked south down Berner St, passing Mortimer's house.

Great quote there Joshua. Confirms Wess as interpreter and Leon as a club member.

So, both Goldstein and Schwartz went to the police with an interpreter friend.

Who had a gladstone full of empty cigarette cartons at the moment he passes the gates, and was just steps away from men who made cigarettes, who later confirmed they were awake at the rough time of the murder.

Goldstein was a traveller. Schwartz, who "had gone out for the day" (Star), seems also to have been a traveller.

My question is obviously...did Goldstein intend to enter through the gates to drop off those cartons? Did he see something that caused him to just continue on past.

Did Schwartz also see something? "Before he had gone many yards, however, he heard the sound of a quarrel, and turned back to learn what was the matter,..." (Star).

If men were in that entranceway, then the widely accepted discovery time is incorrect. As a matter of record, the time Leon passes is virtually the same time that Blackwell had estimated would be around the earliest the cut was made.

So, more like the same time that Schwartz gave.

Has the penny dropped?

[Michael W Richards]

Found it!
Daily News 3rd Oct '88

"Mr. W. Wess, Secretary of the International Working Men's Club, Berner-street, called at our office at midnight and made the following statement:-It having come to my knowledge that the man who was seen by Mrs. Mortimer, of 36, Berner-street, passing her house "carrying a black shiny bag," who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road about the time the murder was supposed to have occurred, was a member of the club, I immediately went with him, between 10 and 11 to-night, to the Leman-street Police-station, where he made a statement as to his whereabouts on Saturday evening which was completely satisfactory"

Great quote there Joshua. Confirms Wess as interpreter and Leon as a club member. Who had a gladstone full of empty cigarette cartons at the moment he passes the gates, and was just steps away from men who made cigarettes, who later confirmed they were awake at the rough time of the murder. My question is obviously...did Goldstein intend to enter through the gates to drop off those cartons? Did he see something that caused him to just continue on past.

If men were in that entranceway, then the widely accepted discovery time is incorrect. As a matter of record, the time Leon passes is virtually the same time that Blackwell had estimated would be around the earliest the cut was made.

[Michael W Richards]

Isaac Kozebrodski

I Think this chap could be Isaac Kozebrodski ?

Isaac Moses Broder born c 1855 Bryezan, Galicia ....Jewellry traveller
living at 17 East Mount street Whitechapel in 1891 with wife Fanny (Levy) and children They married in England.1878, London City

Mostly called himself Moses or Morris Broder In census and naturalisation records. In 1881 he was in Glasgow census...

I read he was known as Isaac M Kozebrodsky on these boards

Pat.....

I believe Issac Kozebrodski, (often suggested as being known as "Issacs" by some...which is disputed by some others), was something in the neighbourhood of seventeen at the time of the crime. So a BC for 1855 would be a no go.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I was wondering how it was known that Jacob Rombro (aka Philip Krantz) was a social democrat rather an anarchist, who left for New York in 1889. See this post ...

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/scene-of-the-crimes/3858-the-international-working-mens-association-wiiliam-wess?p=162192#post162192

Der Arbeter Fraint was published at 5pm on Friday's ...

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/scene-of-the-crimes/3858-the-international-working-mens-association-wiiliam-wess?p=162154#post162154

So, on the Saturday night in the hours leading up to the double event, Rombro was hard at work in the editor's office preparing the next edition of the paper. Although he seems to have had the company of a female - Yaffa.

Here's a mass meeting poster - for Dec 28 '89 - produced in the printing office. The speakers list includes Wess, Feigenbaum, and Goldstein.

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/scene-of-the-crimes/3858-the-international-working-mens-association-wiiliam-wess?p=162119#post162119

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Thanks Jon. I was about to ask you how you know, but it says so on Krantz's witness page;

"Born Jacob Rombro in 1859 in Podolia, Russia. After fleeing the pogroms of 1881 he spent some time in Paris before coming to London and changing his name. Editor of Arbeter Fraint ('Worker's Friend')"

Interesting article about Der Arbeter Fraint, which says of Krantz:

Philip Kranz was appointed its first editor, (until 1889 when as a social democrat he broke with the anarchists and left for New York); gathering a group of bright young Jewish writers: eg Benjamin Feigenbaum, obsessed with debunking religion, who wrote anti-religious satires for the paper.

Wikipedia says of Feigenbaum:

As a young socialist in 1887, Feigenbaum considered starting a socialist Yiddish newspaper. To his delight, he discovered the newly created London-based Arbeter Fraynd, contacting them immediately. Towards the end of 1888, Feigenbaum moved to London, UK with his wife, to join their editorial board.

Conceivably Feigenbaum was at the club on September 30.

[jerryd]

Joshua,

I just sent you a PM regarding Wess.

[Joshua Rogan]

Thanks Dave, every little helps!

[DJA]

A plethora of biographies and obituaries confirm that Woolf Wess was indeed William West. I still can't find a name for the brother though.

Might not be much help,however William West was listed with relatives named Louise and Saul Yauoff in the 1891 Census.

Guess where ....... Brady Street!

[Joshua Rogan]

According to Sugden's "Complete History", Leon Goldstein - the man with the black bag seen by Fanny Mortimer - was a member of the club. Can anyone confirm this, or know where he got this from?

Found it!
Daily News 3rd Oct '88

"Mr. W. Wess, Secretary of the International Working Men's Club, Berner-street, called at our office at midnight and made the following statement:-It having come to my knowledge that the man who was seen by Mrs. Mortimer, of 36, Berner-street, passing her house "carrying a black shiny bag," who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road about the time the murder was supposed to have occurred, was a member of the club, I immediately went with him, between 10 and 11 to-night, to the Leman-street Police-station, where he made a statement as to his whereabouts on Saturday evening which was completely satisfactory"

[Joshua Rogan]

A plethora of biographies and obituaries confirm that Woolf Wess was indeed William West. I still can't find a name for the brother though.

[Joshua Rogan]

William West says in his inquest evidence that he left the club with his brother, so presumably he too was a member. West also says that another member, named Louis Stansley, left with them.

Eagle says that a member named Jacobs and another ran off looking for police.

The Daily News has the member who left with Wess and his brother as "Lewis Selzi".

Was William West actually Wolf Wess, as the witness page says, or was this his brother?

[Joshua Rogan]

Leon Goldstein had empty cigarette cartons, used by cigarette makers to package their hand rolled products. There were cigarette makers in the cottages in the passageway, awake at the time of the murder and discovery. I believe Leon intended to deliver his empty cartons to the men who waited for him in the cottages, but was probably waived on past as he looked into the yard, by gathering members crowding around Stride.

Interesting possibility, but it relies on Louis arriving before Leon. Yet Fanny says she saw Goldstein walk by, and only afterwards heard Diemschutz's cart go by.

[Joshua Rogan]

William West says in his inquest evidence that he left the club with his brother, so presumably he too was a member. West also says that another member, named Louis Stansley, left with them.

Eagle says that a member named Jacobs and another ran off looking for police.