IWEC members

[c.d.]

But again, Schwartz never said he saw Stride being killed. He only saw her being thrown to the ground. He can hardly be blamed for how someone chooses to interpret his account.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Well if Jack was broad shoulders, he assaulted Liz right next to were she was found murdered. He may not have expected her body to be found so soon after, but there would always be a chance of that , and of course that is what happened. But the very fact he did assault her [ if he existed ], in the street would he then go and kill her mere feet away when he knows at least one witness had a good view of him and probably a second, and would he draw attention to himself by shouting " Lipski " ?
Knowing he was soon to kill Liz, ripper or not ?
I doubt it very much

Regards Darryl

For myself the idea that the killer would interact in any significant or avoidable way with a witness just before committing a crime like murder is unlikely as well. Assuming that he intended to kill her of course. I think its one of the weaknesses of Israels statement. Because suggesting that incident happened where and when he stated it did makes BS almost certainly her killer. And his behaviour in front of witnesses, if she is an intended target at that time, isnt what we would expect from the Phantom Menace anyway. Isnt one of his trademarks that he avoids been seen?

If Israel Schwartz's account is false, which I personally believe it was, then it does become a very different scenario. Her probable killer? Not so obvious without BSM. But where then did the killer likely come from, seems to be more obvious.

[Lewis C]

Has anyone considered that Liz may have tried to head to the club to raise the alarm that she was being pursued?

The club's noise would seem to offer her potential safety, but she didn't get to the door in time before he caught her. JtR did not want the alarm to be raised. Killed her by covering her mouth from behind and slitting her left carotid swiftly and efficiently. Then, along comes Luis and his pony.

JtR slinks into the shadows of the nearby privy. Tense and nervous he peers gingerly around the corner to see if there is an opportunity to get away. Luis goes inside and he seizes his moment to escape.

This is how I believe it unfolded.

I think that this is possible, but only if BS man wasn't her killer. Schwartz' account immediately prior to the assault is of him following BS man and seeing the assault when BS man reaches Stride, and it sounds like BS man is walking rather than running. That being the case, if Stride had been running away from him, she would have escaped.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Would Jack have been happy about the evidence given by Schwartz (if it is assumed he knew about it)?

Well if Jack was broad shoulders, he assaulted Liz right next to were she was found murdered. He may not have expected her body to be found so soon after, but there would always be a chance of that , and of course that is what happened. But the very fact he did assault her [ if he existed ], in the street would he then go and kill her mere feet away when he knows at least one witness had a good view of him and probably a second, and would he draw attention to himself by shouting " Lipski " ?
Knowing he was soon to kill Liz, ripper or not ?
I doubt it very much

Regards Darryl

[Michael W Richards]

If someone from inside the club killed Liz, how did they know she was there to be killed? There, as in conveniently standing in the gateway or yard? Did no one notice someone going outside in the minutes before the discovery, only to return shortly after and go immediately to the sink?



Had Liz been working at the club, the police seem not to have learnt of this.

I believe there should have been some men that did see Liz there during that critical last half hour and declined to admit to it later. We have Issac K returning to the club at around 12:30pm, we have Eagle arriving at the passageway at around 12:40, we have Lave standing there for almost 15 minutes..at the gate and inside the passageway, we have Israel Schwartz claim a he saw a commotion in front of the gates with Liz and 2 other people at around 12:45, and you have Goldstein walking past around 12:55...making his pass the closest to the earliest time of the cut as estimated by Blackwell around 30 minutes later. We know Liz was in that immediate area at 12:35 based on PC Smith's sighting, are we to believe that none of those witnesses saw her at or shortly thereafter that time? This murder has been investigated with the pretext that its ok if we see almost scheduled arrivals and disappearances of witnesses or victims to make the storyline work. And missing sightings of men whose own statements put them right there at the crucial moments.

As for whether Liz was actually there to work, its my conjecture supported by her recent past I mentioned, her lodgemates remarks she wore her "good evening wear" that night, the lint brush request, the breath fresheners, the flowers she didnt have when leaving the doss house for the night, the fact that the location she was at had a large meeting that was now in the state of needing to be cleaned, it ended around 11:00-11:30, ...all in all I believe it was a date, which I dont rule out, or that she had been offered this job to clean by a Jewish person she already worked for or one that had heard of her.

All of these ideas are guesswork based on the interpretation of the known available evidence, mine are, so are most posters. After all we are here to discuss ideas really, not to solve any crimes.

[Michael W Richards]

Has anyone considered that Liz may have tried to head to the club to raise the alarm that she was being pursued?

The club's noise would seem to offer her potential safety, but she didn't get to the door in time before he caught her. JtR did not want the alarm to be raised. Killed her by covering her mouth from behind and slitting her left carotid swiftly and efficiently. Then, along comes Luis and his pony.

JtR slinks into the shadows of the nearby privy. Tense and nervous he peers gingerly around the corner to see if there is an opportunity to get away. Luis goes inside and he seizes his moment to escape.

This is how I believe it unfolded.

That is an interesting take on the "knowns" in this case, presuming that the statement by Israel Schwartz is viable and Liz is first accosted on the street in front of the gates. For me, since she is not seen alive by anyone else after 12:35pm... based on the other possibility being the available young couple that Brown saw instead of Liz, she is most likely in the passageway when attacked, perhaps hoping to get to that open side door, but I think her fatal encounter began and ended inside the gates. Very brief. Poked hard in the chest as a warning, known to be a bit of a handful at times..says something she shouldnt have and turns to leave..I believe the indicators are that she had her back turned when he grabs her scarf and twists, pulls her back off balance, runs the knife across her throat as he lets go of the scarf.

I lean towards an indignant rebuff and a thug type who had more alcohol in him than sense. The more I consider hired thugs, which they likely did when the original speaker for that night, William Morris, received threats for that night. Maybe couldnt cancel them. It doesnt have to be a member that kills Liz, but I think its likely the man came from the club. Or arrived at it, after the meeting.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Has anyone considered that Liz may have tried to head to the club to raise the alarm that she was being pursued?

The club's noise would seem to offer her potential safety, but she didn't get to the door in time before he caught her. JtR did not want the alarm to be raised. Killed her by covering her mouth from behind and slitting her left carotid swiftly and efficiently. Then, along comes Luis and his pony.

JtR slinks into the shadows of the nearby privy. Tense and nervous he peers gingerly around the corner to see if there is an opportunity to get away. Luis goes inside and he seizes his moment to escape.

This is how I believe it unfolded.

An interesting hypothesis.

I believe we can learn more about what Stride was up to, by looking closer at the press comments of Herschburg and Spooner.

Herschburg: In her hand there was a little piece of paper containing five or six cachous.

How could Abraham have known this? The cachous were essentially hidden from view...

Dr Blackwell: The left hand, lying on the ground, was partially closed, and contained a small packet of cachous wrapped in tissue paper.

It's dark, and the cachous is wrapped in tissue paper. How could Herschburg have counted the cachous without taking them out of the paper in her hand? Or was he referring to her other (right) hand? Lo and behold...

Spooner: I noticed that she had a piece of paper doubled up in her right hand...

This suggests to me that cachous in paper had, at one point, been in both her hands. Which hints at theft, which in turn hints at a motive for the murder, albeit an unjustified one.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Im afraid Im missing your intention again with the above. Eagle left after the meeting broke up and walked his date home. When he returned he tried the front door, found it locked, then went around to the side door through the passageway. What I was addressing was the idea that someone from the club but not necessarily a member could have killed Liz, gone inside and dropped the knife in the suds.

If someone from inside the club killed Liz, how did they know she was there to be killed? There, as in conveniently standing in the gateway or yard? Did no one notice someone going outside in the minutes before the discovery, only to return shortly after and go immediately to the sink?

Mrs D was cleaning up at that time. Its possible that Liz Stride contacts within the Jewish community due to her working in that district for Jewish families the past few weeks, steadily, might have landed the job by word of mouth and she was there to do what she apparently did well, clean.

Had Liz been working at the club, the police seem not to have learnt of this.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

For what it is worth I am not a fan of Israel Schwartz [ see other threads ] , either seeing everything he allegedly saw or when he said he saw it.

Point taken

Although I don't 100% discount him, what I do discount is Broad shoulders being Jack and since I believe Jack killed Liz I discount him as her killer.

Would Jack have been happy about the evidence given by Schwartz (if it is assumed he knew about it)?

[erobitha]

Has anyone considered that Liz may have tried to head to the club to raise the alarm that she was being pursued?

The club's noise would seem to offer her potential safety, but she didn't get to the door in time before he caught her. JtR did not want the alarm to be raised. Killed her by covering her mouth from behind and slitting her left carotid swiftly and efficiently. Then, along comes Luis and his pony.

JtR slinks into the shadows of the nearby privy. Tense and nervous he peers gingerly around the corner to see if there is an opportunity to get away. Luis goes inside and he seizes his moment to escape.

This is how I believe it unfolded.

[New Waterloo]

Might not be much help, however William West was listed with relatives named Louise and Saul Yauoff in the 1891 Census.

Guess where ....... Brady Street!

Hello DJA

Your research above is interesting. I am not sure have we ever identified the person called 'Yaffa'

Could it be either Louise or Saul YAUOFF as you have found in the 1891 census. Could somebody help with the pronunciation of Yauoff? seems close to me but perhaps 'Yaffa has been identified already

NW

[Michael W Richards]

Don't forget “Kosminski” [no forename], a Polish Jew.

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon,

This "Polish Jew" comment was made by Anderson when summarizing his opinion based on the investigations that took place, the door to door searches, while he was abroad in Paris apparently, correct? Published the year he puts out his memoirs. But didnt he say essentially the same thing right after he returned from his " rest" in Europe? Cant seem to find the source for that. I thought I recalled him voicing that opinion, though not with the name you mentioned...just a generalization, when commenting on possible suspects.

[Michael W Richards]

For what it is worth I am not a fan of Israel Schwartz [ see other threads ] , either seeing everything he allegedly saw or when he said he saw it. Although I don't 100% discount him, what I do discount is Broad shoulders being Jack and since I believe Jack killed Liz I discount him as her killer.
Liz may have made a noise but if we follow the medical evidence [ and not Schwartz ], it seems very likely to me that she was killed suddenly and swiftly .

Regards Darryl

I think Blackwells summary of what would be required to accomplish the deed agrees with you..a sudden attack and cut, swiftly executed. I believe he said perhaps "2 seconds". Not to say there was no resistance, she is being choked at the time with her own scarf. Worth noting that its possible she was cut "while falling", the only victim that is still standing when first cut.

[Michael W Richards]

Eagle returned to the club in time for supper - not to help the women clean up in the kitchen.

Mrs Deimschitz: The door had been, and still was, half open, and through the aperture the light from the gas jets in the kitchen was streaming out into the yard.

Im afraid Im missing your intention again with the above. Eagle left after the meeting broke up and walked his date home. When he returned he tried the front door, found it locked, then went around to the side door through the passageway. What I was addressing was the idea that someone from the club but not necessarily a member could have killed Liz, gone inside and dropped the knife in the suds. Mrs D was cleaning up at that time. Its possible that Liz Stride contacts within the Jewish community due to her working in that district for Jewish families the past few weeks, steadily, might have landed the job by word of mouth and she was there to do what she apparently did well, clean.

[Simon Wood]

Don't forget “Kosminski” [no forename], a Polish Jew.

Regards,

Simon