IWEC members

[Joshua Rogan]

I think on the whole Heschberg says he "came down" from upstairs, where most if not all the remaining members were at the time Stride appears in the passageway. I believe his knowledge of the club, his lack of knowledge about Louis and his role there, and his comments which do not specifically link him as a member, indicate he attended the club and the meeting that night. It was open to anyone with an admittance fee.

I'm not sure the club was open to anyone. According to Wess, any working man of any nationality could be proposed, but only if they were known to be a supporter of the socialist movement. You might think Heshburg would know what sort of club it was, rather than having to "suppose it was a Socialist club". So I don't think it was a case of simply paying at the door. The only mention I can think of is the Echo report where the club suggests charging people entrance to view the murder site.
Yes, Heshburg says he "came down", though I believe no.28 where he lived had an upstairs, not only the club.
But the most obvious thing pointing to him not being in the club at the time of the murder is the fact that he says it was the sound of police whistles which alerted him. If he was at the club, surely he would have noticed all the other members rushing outside?

[Michael W Richards]

According to Sugden's "Complete History", Leon Goldstein - the man with the black bag seen by Fanny Mortimer - was a member of the club. Can anyone confirm this, or know where he got this from?

Leon Goldstein had empty cigarette cartons, used by cigarette makers to package their hand rolled products. There were cigarette makers in the cottages in the passageway, awake at the time of the murder and discovery. I believe Leon intended to deliver his empty cartons to the men who waited for him in the cottages, but was probably waived on past as he looked into the yard, by gathering members crowding around Stride.

[Michael W Richards]

According to the East London Observer 6th Oct,

"Neither Morris Eagle, a Russian Jew, Isaac M. Kazebrodski, a Russian Pole, or Abraham Heshburg, who were in the International Working Men's Club at the time.....heard or saw anything unusual in Berner-street."

This makes it seem like Heshburg was a member of the club, but I can't see anything in the interview he gives to confirm that he was - To me he speaks like he's an outsider, not a member. The Irish Times 1st Oct seems to be the most complete account;

"In the course of an interview with a witness shortly after 6 o'clock this morning Abraham Heshberg, a young fellow, living at 20 Berner street, said- "I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to 1 o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter in the gateway. Two or three people had collected, and when I got there I saw a short dark young woman lying on the ground, with a gash between 4 and 5 inches long in her throat. I should think she was 25 to 28 years of age. Her head was towards the north wall, against which she was lying. She had a black dress on, with a bunch of flowers pinned on the breast. In her hand there was a little piece of paper containing five or six cachous. The body was not found by Koster, but by a man whose name I do not know, a man who goes out with a pony and barrow, and lives up the archway where he was going, I believe, to put up his barrow on coming home from market. He thought it was his wife at first, but when he found her safe at home he got a candle and found this woman. He never touched it till the doctor had been sent for. The little gate is always open, or at all events unfastened, but I don't think the yard is one which is used by loose women. There are some stables in there - Messrs Duncan, Woollatt, and Cade I believe - and there is a place to which a lot of girls take home sacks which they have been engaged in making. None of these would be there though after about 1 o'clock on Saturday afternoon. None of us recognised the woman. I don't think she belongs to this neighbourhood. She was dressed very respectably. There seemed to be no wounds on the body About the club? Oh, yes, it would be open till 2 or 3 this morning. I suppose it is a Socialist club, and there are generally rows there. Both men and women go there. They have demonstrations up there, and concerts, for which they have a stage and plane. There was a row there last Sunday night. It went on till about 2 in the morning, and in the end two people were arrested."

Thoughts?

I think on the whole Heschberg says he "came down" from upstairs, where most if not all the remaining members were at the time Stride appears in the passageway. I believe his knowledge of the club, his lack of knowledge about Louis and his role there, and his comments which do not specifically link him as a member, indicate he attended the club and the meeting that night. It was open to anyone with an admittance fee.

[Joshua Rogan]

According to the East London Observer 6th Oct,

"Neither Morris Eagle, a Russian Jew, Isaac M. Kazebrodski, a Russian Pole, or Abraham Heshburg, who were in the International Working Men's Club at the time.....heard or saw anything unusual in Berner-street."

This makes it seem like Heshburg was a member of the club, but I can't see anything in the interview he gives to confirm that he was - To me he speaks like he's an outsider, not a member. The Irish Times 1st Oct seems to be the most complete account;

"In the course of an interview with a witness shortly after 6 o'clock this morning Abraham Heshberg, a young fellow, living at 20 Berner street, said- "I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to 1 o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter in the gateway. Two or three people had collected, and when I got there I saw a short dark young woman lying on the ground, with a gash between 4 and 5 inches long in her throat. I should think she was 25 to 28 years of age. Her head was towards the north wall, against which she was lying. She had a black dress on, with a bunch of flowers pinned on the breast. In her hand there was a little piece of paper containing five or six cachous. The body was not found by Koster, but by a man whose name I do not know, a man who goes out with a pony and barrow, and lives up the archway where he was going, I believe, to put up his barrow on coming home from market. He thought it was his wife at first, but when he found her safe at home he got a candle and found this woman. He never touched it till the doctor had been sent for. The little gate is always open, or at all events unfastened, but I don't think the yard is one which is used by loose women. There are some stables in there - Messrs Duncan, Woollatt, and Cade I believe - and there is a place to which a lot of girls take home sacks which they have been engaged in making. None of these would be there though after about 1 o'clock on Saturday afternoon. None of us recognised the woman. I don't think she belongs to this neighbourhood. She was dressed very respectably. There seemed to be no wounds on the body About the club? Oh, yes, it would be open till 2 or 3 this morning. I suppose it is a Socialist club, and there are generally rows there. Both men and women go there. They have demonstrations up there, and concerts, for which they have a stage and plane. There was a row there last Sunday night. It went on till about 2 in the morning, and in the end two people were arrested."

Thoughts?

[Joshua Rogan]

According to Sugden's "Complete History", Leon Goldstein - the man with the black bag seen by Fanny Mortimer - was a member of the club. Can anyone confirm this, or know where he got this from?

[Jon Guy]

Thanks Jon. I was about to ask you how you know, but it says so on Krantz's witness page;

"Born Jacob Rombro in 1859 in Podolia, Russia. After fleeing the pogroms of 1881 he spent some time in Paris before coming to London and changing his name. Editor of Arbeter Fraint ('Worker's Friend')"

The Casebook Wiki is also a good place to look.

[Joshua Rogan]

Thanks Jon. I was about to ask you how you know, but it says so on Krantz's witness page;

"Born Jacob Rombro in 1859 in Podolia, Russia. After fleeing the pogroms of 1881 he spent some time in Paris before coming to London and changing his name. Editor of Arbeter Fraint ('Worker's Friend')"

[Jon Guy]

Did the paper have two editors, or is M. Rombrow an alternative name for Phillip Krantz?

Rombrov was Krantz, JR.

[Joshua Rogan]

The Star 1st Oct carries the following;

"M. Rombrow is the editor of The Worker's Friend, whose printing office is in the yard. It was just outside the door of this office that the body was found. M. Rombrow says that he was in this office all the time, and had there been the noise of any struggle, however slight, he should have heard it. He heard nothing, however, until the steward's coming into the yard."

Did the paper have two editors, or is M. Rombrow an alternative name for Phillip Krantz?

[Joshua Rogan]

Ah, of course! Thanks for that, I'd forgotten about the dust up at the club. That's where I must have read about his age. And that's where Friedman is mentioned too, thanks Scott, as one of the ringleaders of the assault. Despite reportedly shouting "I will do for some one to night, and done care if I get 12 months for it" he apparently did care as he didn't turn up to the hearing! I wonder if he was ever located?

Times Fri 26th April 1889
Lewis Diemschitz [Louis Diemschutz], 27, and Isaac Kozebrodski, 19, surrendered to their bail to answer an indictment for making a riot and rout, and for assaulting various persons. A third man, Samuel Friedman, who was indicted with the defendants did not surrender to his bail when called. Mr. Gill and Mr. Partridge prosecuted on behalf of the Commissioner of Police; and Mr. W. M. Thompson represented the defendants. The alleged disturbance occurred on March 16, on which day there had been a procession of the Jewish unemployed in the East-end. After the dispersal of the procession, many of those composing it returned to the International Workmen's Club, Berner-street, Commercial-road, E., of which they were members, and from which the procession had started. A crowd of some 200 or 300 persons, who had been following the procession, assembled outside the club, and began to annoy those inside by throwing stones, hooting, and knocking at the door. The defendant Diemschitz, steward of the club, sent for the police, but when they arrived those inside the club assumed the defensive, and, rushing out in a body, attacked the crowd with broom sticks, walking sticks, and umbrellas. It was stated that the defendants bore a prominent part in the fight, and that Diemschitz struck and kicked plain clothes constable Frost, who interfered. Frost attempted to arrest Diemschitz, but was dragged into the club, where he was beaten and kicked. On the conclusion of the case for the prosecution, Mr. Gill abandoned the count for riot. A number of witnesses were called for the defence, who gave evidence to the effect that the police had made an entirely unprovoked attack on the defendants and their companions. The jury found the defendants Guilty of assaulting two constables, but Acquitted them on the other counts. The Chairman said they had greatly aggravated their offence by the defence they had set up. Diemschitz was sentenced to three months' imprisonment with hard labour, and on his liberation to be bound over and to find sureties to keep the peace for 12 months. Kosebrodski was sentenced to pay a fine of £4, or to be imprisoned for one month.

[Paddy]

Isaac Kozebroske Times March 9th 1889

Yes you are correct he was too old.

I have found this from an article in the times above date...

Isaac Kozebrodske aged 19, a machinest of 40 Old Ford Road Bethnal Green

Samuel Friedman Cap blocker of 85 Weaver Street Spitalfields.

Pat......

[Joshua Rogan]

Samuel Friedman.

Ooh, that's a name I don't recall seeing before....any idea where it comes from?

[Scott Nelson]

Samuel Friedman.

[Joshua Rogan]

He seems a little old for our Isaac...I can't find it now, but I seem to remember reading that he was still in his teens, or early twenties at most. Could be wrong about that, but he's usually described as a polish Russian...or Russian Pole...the Evening News says he was born in Warsaw.

[Paddy]

Isaac Kozebrodski

I Think this chap could be Isaac Kozebrodski ?

Isaac Moses Broder born c 1855 Bryezan, Galicia ....Jewellry traveller
living at 17 East Mount street Whitechapel in 1891 with wife Fanny (Levy) and children They married in England.1878, London City

Mostly called himself Moses or Morris Broder In census and naturalisation records. In 1881 he was in Glasgow census...

I read he was known as Isaac M Kozebrodsky on these boards

Pat.....