IWEC members

[Michael W Richards]

Woolf Wess was a photographer - what makes you think Lave was too?

I also take the yard as meaning the outside area inside the line of the gateway.

Eagle could have missed Stride if he arrived back before Smith was on the scene. Is that not a possibility?

Why doesn't Lave see Israel, BSM, Pipeman and the victim out in front of the gates? Perhaps because it's a fake story.



The other thing with Eagle is that he may have seen Stride on the street, and not taken any notice, or perhaps he did notice but did not want to admit to it, perhaps out of embarrassment. Another possibility is that Stride was further down the yard, and Eagle did not notice her presence as he made his way to the side door.

I believe its reported that Lave was an American photographer staying there, and Wess is of course busy with his print media activities. I think the phrase "the yard" is used by some of those interviewed with the broad anywhere inside the gates intention,but its technically a passageway that leads to the yard as we know. If Eagle actually returned at 12:40... which is his estimated time, and he saw absolutely no-one on the street or just inside the gates, then 3 witnesses and one passer-by are all wrong in their times by something like 20-25 minutes. Funny that they would all be off by the same amount of time.....

I think its most probable that after Liz is last seen by a witness that can be trusted she goes into that passageway. Whatever she is at that location for it has to do with the club or someone in it. And she seems to be waiting. Ive suggested a scenario before that.... what if Eagles second date that night is Liz Stride, and after dropping off the lady who was his company at the meeting he returns for Liz. He says wait here and goes inside to collect his pay for speaking that night, a few minutes later he hears a woman is found bleeding inside the gates, and he rushes down to see if its Liz. Maybe at 12:40. Issac K also heads down, so do some others. In the passageway Louis decides to send men for help, and he or some other member tells Issac Kozebrodski to get help. Eagle also heads out...and shortly thereafter Louis and and unidentified member named Issac[s] head out to be seen by Spooner.

So, with Liz now dead, does Eagle tell the police he was her intended date? Does that incriminate him, or at least make them look harder at him? Did anyone else know that Eagle told this woman to meet him there at that time? Do they have to know, after all...shes dead, he cant help her...he doesnt know who did it but doesnt want to be linked with this, so he says he saw nothing when he returned and went upstairs to join the gang.

Interesting storyline I think, and interestingly the timing works perfectly with Lambs comment that he saw the men "just before," or "around", 1am. And therefore it also works with Johnson, and Blackwell too. It doesnt work with Israel, Louis, Eagle and Laves statements. And that really isnt a surprise to me. If anyone might have felt some pressure to appear completely innocent in this it would be the senior staff of the club.

As for Israels story, I do not believe that even if he did see anything, it was at the same time and in the way he described it..

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I believe Lave is staying in one of the cottages in the passageway, he is a photographer and likely did some work for the club, or the paper perhaps. I also think that references to the yard are not always a specific reference to the yard itself, I think by reading the coverage that people referred to being in the accessway to the yard as "the yard". Could Lave have missed seeing Eagle? Maybe, but could Eagle miss seeing Liz Stride...she is very likely in that passageway after Smith leaves, no other witness save Israel sees her out and about after then. Could Eagle have missed seeing Lave strolling about in the yard..maybe. But if Lave is back at the gates around 12:45, then why doesnt he see Israel, BSM, Pipeman and the victim out in front of the gates?

Woolf Wess was a photographer - what makes you think Lave was too?

I also take the yard as meaning the outside area inside the line of the gateway.

Eagle could have missed Stride if he arrived back before Smith was on the scene. Is that not a possibility?

Why doesn't Lave see Israel, BSM, Pipeman and the victim out in front of the gates? Perhaps because it's a fake story.

Its what they didnt see that is the issue.

The other thing with Eagle is that he may have seen Stride on the street, and not taken any notice, or perhaps he did notice but did not want to admit to it, perhaps out of embarrassment. Another possibility is that Stride was further down the yard, and Eagle did not notice her presence as he made his way to the side door.

[Michael W Richards]

Why should Eagle and Lave mention seeing each other, even if either or both did see the other? The issue is, did they see anything suspicious, to which both men said 'no'. Now it is possible that one or both was lying, but men walking in and out of the club/yard is no big deal.

Remember that Lave said he was first in the yard before walking to the street. How do know Eagle doesn't go in the side door while Lave was down near the Arbeter Fraint rooms, therefore missing him? Does your theory not allow for these possibilities?



There is a point about Lave that makes me somewhat suspicious. Mrs Deimschitz said to a reporter:

It was just one o'clock when my husband came home. Some twenty minutes previously a member of the club had entered by the side door, but he states that he did not then notice anybody lying prostrate in the yard. It was, however, very dark at the time, and he might, in consequence, have failed to see any such object on the ground.

It seems she was talking about Eagle, who said similar things at the inquest. Now, presumably Eagle was the last man to enter the side door before the discovery, and the front door was already locked by then. How could Lave return inside before 12:40, having been in the yard as far as the street, for 10 minutes or so, and not see Stride with the man she was seen with by PC Smith? Was Lave temporarily staying at the club itself, or one of the tenements?

I believe Lave is staying in one of the cottages in the passageway, he is a photographer and likely did some work for the club, or the paper perhaps. I also think that references to the yard are not always a specific reference to the yard itself, I think by reading the coverage that people referred to being in the accessway to the yard as "the yard". Could Lave have missed seeing Eagle? Maybe, but could Eagle miss seeing Liz Stride...she is very likely in that passageway after Smith leaves, no other witness save Israel sees her out and about after then. Could Eagle have missed seeing Lave strolling about in the yard..maybe. But if Lave is back at the gates around 12:45, then why doesnt he see Israel, BSM, Pipeman and the victim out in front of the gates?

Its what they didnt see that is the issue.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The obvious, he didnt mention seeing him. Nor did Eagle mention Lave. Nor did either of them mention seeing Liz. I believe that there is a perception that is being constructed here, one that suggests that the passageway was empty that last half hour. That virtually eliminates suggestion that the killer came from that property. My contention is that we have the "Three Wise Monkeys" approach used to protect the club from suspicion. Israel Schwartz, likely translated for by Woolf Wess, gave them just the out they needed later that night..an off site assailant, likely antisemitic, surly and dangerous.

Why should Eagle and Lave mention seeing each other, even if either or both did see the other? The issue is, did they see anything suspicious, to which both men said 'no'. Now it is possible that one or both was lying, but men walking in and out of the club/yard is no big deal.

Remember that Lave said he was first in the yard before walking to the street. How do know Eagle doesn't go in the side door while Lave was down near the Arbeter Fraint rooms, therefore missing him? Does your theory not allow for these possibilities?

The matter of how she dies doesnt exclude anyone with a knife and extremely bad manners, so anyone nearby could have done it...not someone skilled or trained or particularly knowledgeable. That makes the 30 or so singing socialists prime suspect fodder. Proximity. They needed a strategy.

And that is evident I think when you see two club affiliates who were there not seeing each other though there at the same stated time. "We are just law abiding Socialists officer, no-one heard or saw anything or anyone sir"

Of course we see quite different manners in the coming Spring, when they club policemen in that very yard.

There is a point about Lave that makes me somewhat suspicious. Mrs Deimschitz said to a reporter:

It was just one o'clock when my husband came home. Some twenty minutes previously a member of the club had entered by the side door, but he states that he did not then notice anybody lying prostrate in the yard. It was, however, very dark at the time, and he might, in consequence, have failed to see any such object on the ground.

It seems she was talking about Eagle, who said similar things at the inquest. Now, presumably Eagle was the last man to enter the side door before the discovery, and the front door was already locked by then. How could Lave return inside before 12:40, having been in the yard as far as the street, for 10 minutes or so, and not see Stride with the man she was seen with by PC Smith? Was Lave temporarily staying at the club itself, or one of the tenements?

[Michael W Richards]

Yet he didn't see him, or yet he didn't see him, but really did? As only the second (sort of) makes sense, I assume you mean that. So, what did Lave say that is incompatible with him seeing Eagle?

The obvious, he didnt mention seeing him. Nor did Eagle mention Lave. Nor did either of them mention seeing Liz. I believe that there is a perception that is being constructed here, one that suggests that the passageway was empty that last half hour. That virtually eliminates suggestion that the killer came from that property. My contention is that we have the "Three Wise Monkeys" approach used to protect the club from suspicion. Israel Schwartz, likely translated for by Woolf Wess, gave them just the out they needed later that night..an off site assailant, likely antisemitic, surly and dangerous.

The matter of how she dies doesnt exclude anyone with a knife and extremely bad manners, so anyone nearby could have done it...not someone skilled or trained or particularly knowledgeable. That makes the 30 or so singing socialists prime suspect fodder. Proximity. They needed a strategy.

And that is evident I think when you see two club affiliates who were there not seeing each other though there at the same stated time. "We are just law abiding Socialists officer, no-one heard or saw anything or anyone sir"

Of course we see quite different manners in the coming Spring, when they club policemen in that very yard.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Laves statement places him where he could have, and would have, seen Morris return and all of what Israels Schwartz says he saw, all the people and the action, yet he didnt. So yes, Lave isnt telling the truth and needs to be set aside. Not saying he is dismissable because he didnt see Israel, but because he didnt see Eagle and Israel.

Yet he didn't see him, or yet he didn't see him, but really did? As only the second (sort of) makes sense, I assume you mean that. So, what did Lave say that is incompatible with him seeing Eagle?

[Michael W Richards]

I'm sorry Michael, you caught me napping. Lave does indeed give absolute (clock) times in some press reports. By those times there is a good chance he would have seen Stride at the gateway. Therefore, Lave probably has to be dismissed to maintain belief in the story told by Schwartz, and that is exactly what some members have done.

Laves statement places him where he could have, and would have, seen Morris return and all of what Israels Schwartz says he saw, all the people and the action, yet he didnt. So yes, Lave isnt telling the truth and needs to be set aside. Not saying he is dismissable because he didnt see Israel, but because he didnt see Eagle and Israel.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Lave stated to the press that night that he went out at 12:40 to get air and was there, just in the street, for what he says was "........about half an hour, and while I was out nobody came into the yard, nor did I see anybody moving about there in a way to excite my suspicions" Clearly he is either mistaken, or misleading. That timing does not work at all when married with other statements. I believe Lave lived in one of the passageway cottages. Did some photography for the club.

I'm sorry Michael, you caught me napping. Lave does indeed give absolute (clock) times in some press reports. By those times there is a good chance he would have seen Stride at the gateway. Therefore, Lave probably has to be dismissed to maintain belief in the story told by Schwartz, and that is exactly what some members have done.

[Michael W Richards]

The Evening News printed a letter to the editor on September 11, 3 weeks before Liz Strides murder, and the authour G.H.H. had this to say about local treatment of the Jewish immigrants...."I found it difficult to traverse the streets in the vicinity of the Whitechapel, without observing in almost every thoroughfare , knots of persons (consisting of men, women and children), and overhearing their slanderous and insulting remarks towards the Jews, who occasionally passed by. With justice to my countrymen, I mention that the foul epithets was made use of by people of the most ignorant and dangerous class, promoted by the information they had casually obtained that a man known as "Leather Apron" had a Jewish appearance, and was wanted for the recent Whitechapel murders. Even were it the case that the actual perpetrator belonged to the Hebrew class, is it not cowardly and unjust that in the extreme to calumniate a sect for the sins of one? Spotless indeed would be the flock entirely minus of black sheep. The Jew predominates in the neighbourhood where I am and have been residing for years, but notwithstanding the crimes committed by the members of our so- called Christian race average at least 99 per cent, in excess of those imputed by the Jews."

It was a societal problem, the massive influx of Jewish Immigrants to the already bursting East End caused some serious animosity with the gentile locals. Its no wonder we find grafitto like the kind found in Goulston. But on the night it is found, might it be directly related to the crime on Berner Street, and evidence that whoever killed Kate was to some degree antisemitic? "The Juwes/Jews/Jewes are not the men that will be blamed for nothing", is that a reference to the Jewish club attendees and their suggestion to anyone who could listen that "another" murder has been committed? Were they evading blame, or did the author of the GSG believe that was the case?

[Michael W Richards]

Part of the problem here is that there are multiple, various timing storylines with very few crossover validations to go with them. When faced with this I just figure that you need to try and get a sense of who the people are, why they were where they were, and whether there are factors at play that could affect how they present their evidence to the police. Does anyone have agendas?

A club that can be filled with local, poor, Jewish immigrant Socialists that had been experiencing antisemitism and hatred from the communities they packed into. Including the police. So...defensive...maybe? It was said that a Jewish witness refused to identify a suspect because of their shared faith, what kind of bond existed between some club attendees that night. Eagle, Lave, Schwartz, Wess, Goldstein (in passing), and Diemshitz. If the first man to find Liz Stride saw no-one else around then the chances are high that someone on the premises did this. She is found inside the gates after all. Some 17 people lived in the house on Hanbury where Annie is slaughtered, you have to assume that the police wanted to talk to them first. The same thing goes for Berner Street, there were some 20 people still there that night.

[Michael W Richards]

Lave stated to the press that night that he went out at 12:40 to get air and was there, just in the street, for what he says was "........about half an hour, and while I was out nobody came into the yard, nor did I see anybody moving about there in a way to excite my suspicions" Clearly he is either mistaken, or misleading. That timing does not work at all when married with other statements. I believe Lave lived in one of the passageway cottages. Did some photography for the club.

In another thread I just suggested that if Israel Schwartz' story had him leaving the club by the side door at around the same time he said it was, and that he did see Liz with someone mistreating her, just inside the passageway slightly behind the open gate by the wall, ...then there would be a few more answers to the questions that are currently unknowns.

I think due to the size of the meeting that night.. maybe based on the original anticipation that the speaker would be William Morris, they might have had several close members of the club helping out. Maybe even security, some local bully. He could be BSM.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

There are the witness provided times, and the estimated times based on how palatable they are to the individual reader. We do in fact have specific times given by some witnesses, they are not offered as "approximate" times.

Lave was not one of those. He gave a timing relative to the alarm of murder. He is not recorded as stating what time he supposed that alarm to be.

Ive made some suggestions that some men gave information that they knew was false, and that these particular men also happen to be the men most responsible for the conduct of the club. IF...big IF...Israel did see something very like what is recorded that Sunday night but saw it within the passageway, that would sure go a long way to accepting they might have done some damage control. Not very well, considering some statements made by club attendees directly contradict their own statements, but perhaps that is representative of the nature of this damage control, only a few men...the most responsible....discussed this.

Schwartz (who you've linked to the club), gave a time of ~12:45. Goldstein, in Swanson's report, was about 1am. Which, if either of these was known to be false when stated?

[Michael W Richards]

Eagle saw no one?

C: Did you see anyone about in Berner-street?
E: I dare say I did, but I do not remember them.

What about Wess?

C: Did you meet anybody in Berner-street?
W: I can't recollect; but as I went along Fairclough-street, close by, I noticed some men and women standing together.
C: Did you see no one nearer?
W: No, sir.

We can never be sure if either man saw others in the street or not.



This is an important issue which can easily be avoided by asserting that Eagle's timing was a guesstimate, so he probably got it wrong and as a result missed seeing Stride. Okay, but what about Lave, Mortimer, the young couple, and earlier, Charles Letchford? How many times can the "times are estimates" excuse be made, even if witness times are estimates?

As for Lave, perhaps he was too early?...

I am a Russian, and have recently arrived in England from the United States. I am residing temporarily at the club. About twenty minutes before the alarm I went down into the yard to get a breath of fresh air. I walked about for five minutes or more, and went as far as the street. Everything was very quiet at the time, and I noticed nothing wrong.

What time is about 20 minutes before the alarm, as far as he is concerned? If the body was discovered well before 1am as you claim, then 20 minutes prior means he would like miss seeing Eagle, so there would be no issue there.

There are the witness provided times, and the estimated times based on how palatable they are to the individual reader. We do in fact have specific times given by some witnesses, they are not offered as "approximate" times.

Ive made some suggestions that some men gave information that they knew was false, and that these particular men also happen to be the men most responsible for the conduct of the club. IF...big IF...Israel did see something very like what is recorded that Sunday night but saw it within the passageway, that would sure go a long way to accepting they might have done some damage control. Not very well, considering some statements made by club attendees directly contradict their own statements, but perhaps that is representative of the nature of this damage control, only a few men...the most responsible....discussed this.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

My comments about these story and detail discrepancies are to illustrate that when sorted out, the most problematic statements come from people who would be the most personally impacted by any trouble for the club, operators or employees. Attendees have no agenda, they saw what they saw and heard what they did. Omission or falsehoods are simple ways of deflecting suspicion. It strains reason to imagine that multiple people claiming to be somewhere at a given point in time are less trustworthy than someone who claims the actual time is 20min later than all 3 previous statements claimed. Why should we give him credence? Oh right, hes the steward, a man in charge..so to speak. Why would he fib? Ive answered that question a bunch of times...because if this event turned bad for the club it would have been closed. People losing jobs, maybe accommodations too. To protect themselves, they "saw or heard nothing, Officer."

Eagle didnt see Lave, he saw no-one. Lave didnt see Eagle, he saw an empty street. No-one saw anyone in the passageway, though we have historical data that suggests "low men" would gather and smoke in that passageway after meetings until after 1am some Saturdays. Funny that there apparently wasnt a single smoker there than night. The people in the cottages were awake, but heard nothing. Mrs D's kitchen door was a ajar...when is a door not a door....yet she heard nothing. Wess saw an empty street when he left, Lave comes to the gate and sees nothing, Eagle walks past Lave and they dont see each other, Mrs D likely sees Eagle enter and go upstairs, he doesnt mention a body because the body will be there around 12:46 to 12:56..but he also doesnt mention Lave or Liz Stride herself..where do we believe she went after Smith leaves? Even if she is on the street, why didnt Eagle see her? The reality is that he would have seen her. And Lave.

Eagle saw no one?

C: Did you see anyone about in Berner-street?
E: I dare say I did, but I do not remember them.

What about Wess?

C: Did you meet anybody in Berner-street?
W: I can't recollect; but as I went along Fairclough-street, close by, I noticed some men and women standing together.
C: Did you see no one nearer?
W: No, sir.

We can never be sure if either man saw others in the street or not.

... Mrs D likely sees Eagle enter and go upstairs, he doesnt mention a body because the body will be there around 12:46 to 12:56..but he also doesnt mention Lave or Liz Stride herself..where do we believe she went after Smith leaves? Even if she is on the street, why didnt Eagle see her? The reality is that he would have seen her. And Lave.

This is an important issue which can easily be avoided by asserting that Eagle's timing was a guesstimate, so he probably got it wrong and as a result missed seeing Stride. Okay, but what about Lave, Mortimer, the young couple, and earlier, Charles Letchford? How many times can the "times are estimates" excuse be made, even if witness times are estimates?

As for Lave, perhaps he was too early?...

I am a Russian, and have recently arrived in England from the United States. I am residing temporarily at the club. About twenty minutes before the alarm I went down into the yard to get a breath of fresh air. I walked about for five minutes or more, and went as far as the street. Everything was very quiet at the time, and I noticed nothing wrong.

What time is about 20 minutes before the alarm, as far as he is concerned? If the body was discovered well before 1am as you claim, then 20 minutes prior means he would like miss seeing Eagle, so there would be no issue there.

[Michael W Richards]

Morris Eagle is said to have tumbled down the stairs "pell mell" when he heard of a dying woman in the passageway..and he also mentions that he feared the sight of blood. Was he concerned it was the woman he saw in the passageway when he came in the gates, and maybe the woman waiting for him? I wonder if he returned for his speakers pay after taking home his "first" date that night. Just speculating. No need for alarm.