IWEC members

[Herlock Sholmes]

Without evidence the claim about Morris carries no weight.

[Michael W Richards]

DJA can disagree with me all he likes, its a free world and he has the right to his opinion. William Morris had been invited to speak at that club on that very night, and was cancelled when threats were received by the club protesting his appearance. He was a true Socialist. He espoused non-violent Socialist reform. The club on Berner Street was essentially a fringe representation of the Socialist movement, despite the fact that Eagles speech...which he had delivered on prior occasions, the same speech...was Why Jews should be Socialists. These were anarchists, known to be that be neighbours, and the local authorities. Certainly they didnt see themselves that way, but the manner in which they conducted themselves differentiated them with the leaders within the Socialist movement that sought political change, not to abolish all the societal norms and hold the government hostage with strikes and protests. Someone pure to the Socialist ideals wouldnt attack police with a club. Louis and Issac K did.

In modern terms, the equivalent of a non-violent protester is someone who respects police barricades. Someone who seeks out the media for a forum to espouse their personal beliefs and ideals. Someone who would peacefully march in protest for some cause. The fringe elements would seek action....physical force, strikes, work stoppage to make their case. They might even occupy public buildings. Like the MAGA fringe did on January 6th.

So Make America Great Again became for some... Make America Change NOW.

And yes, there is an actual letter from Willam Morris to Woolf Wess that has been discovered that addresses Morris's concerns in that regard, while also declining the speaking engagement offer made within. I believe it is dated sometime in 1889-1890.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Regarding William Morris, I've read you make the claim about him backing out of a speaking appointment, several times. I can't find anything in the press reports to support this. I presume your source for this claim is the letter from Morris to Wess that you refer to in the following post.

While awaiting Michael's response, I came across this...

The Berners Street club served as a hub for socialists of diverse nationalities, including Russian, Jewish, British, French, Italian and Polish, to debate the most appropriate strategies for the realization of a socialist society. Harold Kaplansky, a Jewish socialist who attended the fifth anniversary event of the Berners Street club in June 1890, recalled:

William Morris opened the meeting with a brief but informative speech … He praised the club for its endless dedication and observed that the English comrades could take an example from it. The Jewish immigrants had not come to England for fun, but were driven here by despotism and discrimination, with the tragic experience of leaving their homeland and arriving with the hope of finding a quieter and humane life. Instead, they found the terrible sweating system. New troubles began for them, and they sank in to further depths of despair until the International Working Men's Club brought renewed hope to the hearts of Jewish workers—the holy message of Socialism.

Ref: Full article: Socialist antisemitism and its discontents in England, 1884–98 (tandfonline.com)

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The foundation for questioning the integrity of the information given by some club sources is that they were well aware that the general consensus by the authorities before Fanny's posh bag man is introduced was that the killer they sought was a poor immigrant Jew in the neighbourhood, the neighbours and police described this as an Anarchist, not Socialist club....which is why William Morris backed out of speaking there that night, and that no witness before Israel came in saw anyone else on that street after 12:35. The club men were the only men within striking distance of that passageway, and they could do so unseen from the street. So, they realized suspicions would be on them, at least initially.

Mortimer: ...I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' club close by.

Herschburg: I suppose it is a Socialist club, and there are generally rows there.

What neighbours and police did you have in mind?

Regarding William Morris, I've read you make the claim about him backing out of a speaking appointment, several times. I can't find anything in the press reports to support this. I presume your source for this claim is the letter from Morris to Wess that you refer to in the following post.

Yes, the meeting topic was "Why Jews should be Socialists", and its one that Eagle had used on previous occasions there. William Morris was originally scheduled to speak that night at the club, and he was unabashedly Socialist vs Anarchist. I believe a recently discovered letter from him to Wess speaks to that very point, (revealed on a 2019 espisode of Antiques Roadshow in fact, although it might have been a relay of an earlier date),.. when Morris suggests that the Anarchist tone of the Berner St Club made him hesitant to be representative of it. Being a Socialist does not require activism, Anarchists seek to force their beliefs upon their environment. The club was viewed as an Anarchist club at the very same time as Strides murder, perhaps an ongoing tide and not fully realized, but the law enforcement in the area categorized it as such in the press during this investigation nonetheless. The Arbeter Fraint skirts around those competing ideals during that period too, Lynn Cates had a few issues translated a while back and they were quite revealing. Seems to me Socialists require Anarchists to some extent, a fringe element that is actively seeking to create a new Socialist state. The issue immediately following this murder is interesting too. Cant recall what folder here that it would be in at the moment.

And supporting a militant wave in that club is the fact that its steward and other members are arrested that next spring/summer for attacking police with clubs in that same yard.

DJA responds with some interesting info, in #497. DJA does not agree with your claim re Morris...

Eagle actually chaired the discussion that Saturday night.

William Morris was not advertised or listed to give a speech on "Why Jews Should Be Socialists".
In fact there is no known speech of his under that title.

There were no known problems eight nights previous when Morris actually spoke.

Ironically,there was a serious riot earlier that month on the Day of Atonement.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Just trying again to sort this out. The Story is that Israel turns onto Berner St and notices a man in front of him, on the same side of the street, weaving as if intoxicated. He goes up to a woman standing just outside the gates at 40 Berner St, so Israel crosses the street. He walks past the couple and in just few yards he hears "the sound of a quarrel", and he turns back to see what was the matter. Thats when he sees Pipeman, a "few doors down". The Nelson was on the corner of Fairclough and Berner, #46, so if Pipeman comes from that entranceway, he is across the street from Israel and at the corner. So why did he say "from a few doors down"? Presumably he is looking back to see what was going on...so is a few doors down towards #38,# 36,#34? Or did he mean a few doors towards #46 at the corner? Also, since this Pipeman is the knife-carrying man..and he heads towards BSM and Liz, might he be far more likely to have been the man that kills Liz?

You're right Michael. The Nelson was not a few doors off, it was across the road. This can't be casually ignored.

In the press account, the second man rushes Schwartz with a knife, apparently because he was intruding. On what? The first man is quarrelling with the woman. Over what? I'd suggest something like money. I can't see this man going on to kill her. It's more likely that the men were common thieves. Schwartz is chased for his work bag and other on-person possessions. Remember he turned up to Leman St police station, "well dressed". Stride was relatively well dressed too.

[Michael W Richards]

Just trying again to sort this out. The Story is that Israel turns onto Berner St and notices a man in front of him, on the same side of the street, weaving as if intoxicated. He goes up to a woman standing just outside the gates at 40 Berner St, so Israel crosses the street. He walks past the couple and in just few yards he hears "the sound of a quarrel", and he turns back to see what was the matter. Thats when he sees Pipeman, a "few doors down". The Nelson was on the corner of Fairclough and Berner, #46, so if Pipeman comes from that entranceway, he is across the street from Israel and at the corner. So why did he say "from a few doors down"? Presumably he is looking back to see what was going on...so is a few doors down towards #38,# 36,#34? Or did he mean a few doors towards #46 at the corner? Also, since this Pipeman is the knife-carrying man..and he heads towards BSM and Liz, might he be far more likely to have been the man that kills Liz?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I wondered if anybody could assist me. Do we know who the landlord of The Nelson Beer House/pub was at the time. Could he be pipeman, watching the coming and goings of the members of the club. Was he very annoyed at the fact that he had to close his doors and stop selling drink whilst the club stayed open and sold alcohol whilst people sang and danced. I think it would be reasonable to suggest that he wouldn't be very happy. Maybe not the killer but maybe would get involved with any disturbance. You know winding things up a bit. Packer had a lot to say was the landlord of the Nelson spoken to by police. Do we know? (anyone please) Thanks NW

Casebook: Jack the Ripper - The House Where Jack Swilled?

There is little indication the police new the identity of Pipeman. Had he been Louis Hagens, he must have lied about what he had seen and done that night and got away with it. Are you sure this Pipeman character existed?

[New Waterloo]

I wondered if anybody could assist me. Do we know who the landlord of The Nelson Beer House/pub was at the time. Could he be pipeman, watching the coming and goings of the members of the club. Was he very annoyed at the fact that he had to close his doors and stop selling drink whilst the club stayed open and sold alcohol whilst people sang and danced. I think it would be reasonable to suggest that he wouldn't be very happy. Maybe not the killer but maybe would get involved with any disturbance. You know winding things up a bit. Packer had a lot to say was the landlord of the Nelson spoken to by police. Do we know? (anyone please) Thanks NW

[Michael W Richards]

From Louis Diemshitz, the Echo Oct 1st, Inquest transcripts...." I found her on the ground floor. I had left my pony in the yard by itself, just outside the back door. Several members were on the ground floor, and I told them there was a woman, but I could not tell them whether she was drunk or dead. I got a candle, and at once went into the yard, where I saw a quantity of blood near the body. I did not touch the body. I...(not plural)....went for a policeman, but could not find one. When looking for the police, I told a young man of the affair...(Spooner), and he came with me back to the yard. The young man lifted up the woman's head, and then I saw that the throat was cut. At this time a constable came up..(Lamb). A doctor had been sent for, and he arrived ten minutes after the constable....(Johnson)"

So, in this account Louis has arrived and gone inside to notify folks and get a candle, then he goes running for help, finds only Spooner, whom he returns with. Spooner lifts the womans head. Then Lamb arrives, and 10 minutes later, Johnson. He also says that some men were on the ground floor.

People have been arguing with me about contesting Louis stated arrival time for what seems like, ever. To all of those folks, read this quote attributed to Louis on the stand at the Inquest. Seems fine right? He finds the woman, goes indoors to get help, comes back out with help...then he goes for Police help, but only finds Spooner, who he brings back with him. Spooner checks out the woman, and the next person to arrive is Lamb, 10 minutes later its Johnson. We have Spooners account, and Lambs and Johnsons, and none of them suggest any different actions or appearances. All good?

Ok...then how is it everyone believes that all the men remaining were upstairs? Not according to Louis. How is it that Louis stated arrival time of "precisely" 1am isnt contested vigorously when his own sequence of events suggests that he found the woman, went indoors, came back out, went to look for Police which he didnt find, tells Spooner to come with him then they both arrive at the gates, next outside person to arrive is Lamb who says he got there "just before 1", then Johnson, who says he arrived at 1:10am.

How much time would it take for Louis to get down off his horse, light 2 matches, go indoors and call for help from the attendees, return to the alleyway, then go to try and find a policeman, which he doesnt, then return to the gates, and a few minutes later Lamb arrives at around 1am.

1.If he actually arrived at precisely 1, could Lamb have been there after seeing Eagle looking for help?
2. If Lamb sees Eagle "just before 1", then what time must Eagle have gone out searching for help from the club?
3. If Eagle went out at approximately 5-10 minutes before eventually seeing Lamb at just before 1, then what time was the body first discovered? What time approximately did Eagle go for help?
4. Could Louis and Spooner be by the body just before Lamb arrives around 1 if Louis doesnt even arrive until 1?
5. Could Issac K have seen Eagle and joined him and Lamb then headed back to the club if he had gone out with Louis instead and met Spooner? Issac K says he saw Eagle and joined him, Louis says he went out with Issac[s]. People assume Issac[s] is Issac K, even though his own statement is that he was sent out BY Louis or some other member.

Read the quote above...then question why we are led to believe that all the men were upstairs at the time, that Louis arrived at 1, and that Louis left with Issac K for help. All 3 beliefs are actually incorrect, fairly obviously.

Now, use what Louis says in the quote above, but make the assumed time he heads out for help around 12:45. That statement actually works well now, based on an earlier arrival by Louis.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi again.



Like you, I am deeply suspicious of Schwartz's story. But isn't it the case that parts of it are corroborated by (i) the bruising around Stride's shoulders and (ii) that report of someone being seen as they are chased south?

Mark D.

Im not sure Id feel any better about the story based on those 2 potential links Mark. You know, there are witnesses there who we hear very little from but they must have seen..or possibly heard.... things had they happened out in the street. The young couple. Fanny said that they were in the area that whole time, we hear that they were interviewed and also that Fanny spoke with them after, both parties confirming that they saw or heard nothing on that street. Until Fanny spotted Leon anyway.

You can suggest some physical evidence could be the result of....but the only truly relevant corroboration would be a witness who saw any one of these men. 3 men. Out of the blue they suddenly appear, and before Fanny comes back to the door..they all vanish again. Many people like to point out Fannys comments about things she heard pass out on the street while she was inside, yet she didnt hear anything. No woman soft scream or grunt as Liz hits the ground, no "Lipski" shout, no sound at all from the 8 boots moving about on the cobbles. She hears bootsteps apparently, but not multiple boots steps?

[Mark J D]

Hi again.

As for Israel's story, I do not believe that even if he did see anything, it was at the same time and in the way he described it..

Like you, I am deeply suspicious of Schwartz's story. But isn't it the case that parts of it are corroborated by (i) the bruising around Stride's shoulders and (ii) that report of someone being seen as they are chased south?

Mark D.

[Michael W Richards]

Question....if it could be established that Schwartz and his wife were living in one of those cottages until that morning, would that cause some people to question the integrity of his statement...might he be beholding to the club or his friend Wess for letting him stay there?

[Michael W Richards]

Did Israel and his wife, having known of William Wess before that night, have a cottage in that passageway they moved from? Did Israel go down to the passageway to check to see if the move was complete, or did he come in from the street to check?

Why dont we know where Israel and his wife were living that morning before the move? Its said they lived "on Berner Street", we know Wess and Schwarz knew of each other prior to that night, so....did they move from one of those cottages?

I believe its quite plausible that they did. The census taking of those cottages was not complete at that time.

[Michael W Richards]

I struggle with the notion of Eagle and Stride having a romantic connection, just based on the age difference.

A Victorian cougar?, ....maybe not so rare a cat.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I believe its reported that Lave was an American photographer staying there, and Wess is of course busy with his print media activities. I think the phrase "the yard" is used by some of those interviewed with the broad anywhere inside the gates intention,but its technically a passageway that leads to the yard as we know. If Eagle actually returned at 12:40... which is his estimated time, and he saw absolutely no-one on the street or just inside the gates, then 3 witnesses and one passer-by are all wrong in their times by something like 20-25 minutes. Funny that they would all be off by the same amount of time.....

If you want to check these things, just use Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Search Press Reports.

It's interesting to contrast the life situation of Lave with that of Schwartz (according to press reports).

Our next informant was Joseph Lave, a man just arrived in England from the United States. Lave is now living at the club, till such time as he can find permanent lodgings. What he tells us is this: "I was in the yard of the club this morning about twenty minutes to one. At half-past twelve I had come out into the street to get a breath of fresh air. There was nothing unusual in the street. So far as I could see I was out in the street about half an hour, and while I was out nobody came into the yard, nor did I see anybody moving about there in a way to excite my suspicions."

The reporter's Hungarian was quite as imperfect as the foreigner's English, but an interpreter was at hand, and the man's story was retold just as he had given it to the police. It is, in fact, to the effect that he saw the whole thing. It seems that he had gone out for the day, and his wife had expected to move, during his absence, from their lodgings in Berner-street to others in Backchurch-lane. When he came homewards about a quarter before one he first walked down Berner-street to see if his wife had moved.

Like yourself, I really wonder about the location of their lodgings in Berner St.

I think its most probable that after Liz is last seen by a witness that can be trusted she goes into that passageway. Whatever she is at that location for it has to do with the club or someone in it. And she seems to be waiting. Ive suggested a scenario before that.... what if Eagles second date that night is Liz Stride, and after dropping off the lady who was his company at the meeting he returns for Liz. He says wait here and goes inside to collect his pay for speaking that night, a few minutes later he hears a woman is found bleeding inside the gates, and he rushes down to see if its Liz. Maybe at 12:40. Issac K also heads down, so do some others. In the passageway Louis decides to send men for help, and he or some other member tells Issac Kozebrodski to get help. Eagle also heads out...and shortly thereafter Louis and and unidentified member named Issac[s] head out to be seen by Spooner.

So, with Liz now dead, does Eagle tell the police he was her intended date? Does that incriminate him, or at least make them look harder at him? Did anyone else know that Eagle told this woman to meet him there at that time? Do they have to know, after all...shes dead, he cant help her...he doesnt know who did it but doesnt want to be linked with this, so he says he saw nothing when he returned and went upstairs to join the gang.

Interesting storyline I think, and interestingly the timing works perfectly with Lambs comment that he saw the men "just before," or "around", 1am. And therefore it also works with Johnson, and Blackwell too. It doesnt work with Israel, Louis, Eagle and Laves statements. And that really isnt a surprise to me. If anyone might have felt some pressure to appear completely innocent in this it would be the senior staff of the club.

As for Israels story, I do not believe that even if he did see anything, it was at the same time and in the way he described it..

I struggle with the notion of Eagle and Stride having a romantic connection, just based on the age difference.