IWEC members

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The obvious, he didnt mention seeing him. Nor did Eagle mention Lave. Nor did either of them mention seeing Liz. I believe that there is a perception that is being constructed here, one that suggests that the passageway was empty that last half hour. That virtually eliminates suggestion that the killer came from that property. My contention is that we have the "Three Wise Monkeys" approach used to protect the club from suspicion. Israel Schwartz, likely translated for by Woolf Wess, gave them just the out they needed later that night..an off site assailant, likely antisemitic, surly and dangerous.

Why should Eagle and Lave mention seeing each other, even if either or both did see the other? The issue is, did they see anything suspicious, to which both men said 'no'. Now it is possible that one or both was lying, but men walking in and out of the club/yard is no big deal.

Remember that Lave said he was first in the yard before walking to the street. How do know Eagle doesn't go in the side door while Lave was down near the Arbeter Fraint rooms, therefore missing him? Does your theory not allow for these possibilities?

The matter of how she dies doesnt exclude anyone with a knife and extremely bad manners, so anyone nearby could have done it...not someone skilled or trained or particularly knowledgeable. That makes the 30 or so singing socialists prime suspect fodder. Proximity. They needed a strategy.

And that is evident I think when you see two club affiliates who were there not seeing each other though there at the same stated time. "We are just law abiding Socialists officer, no-one heard or saw anything or anyone sir"

Of course we see quite different manners in the coming Spring, when they club policemen in that very yard.

There is a point about Lave that makes me somewhat suspicious. Mrs Deimschitz said to a reporter:

It was just one o'clock when my husband came home. Some twenty minutes previously a member of the club had entered by the side door, but he states that he did not then notice anybody lying prostrate in the yard. It was, however, very dark at the time, and he might, in consequence, have failed to see any such object on the ground.

It seems she was talking about Eagle, who said similar things at the inquest. Now, presumably Eagle was the last man to enter the side door before the discovery, and the front door was already locked by then. How could Lave return inside before 12:40, having been in the yard as far as the street, for 10 minutes or so, and not see Stride with the man she was seen with by PC Smith? Was Lave temporarily staying at the club itself, or one of the tenements?

[Michael W Richards]

Why should Eagle and Lave mention seeing each other, even if either or both did see the other? The issue is, did they see anything suspicious, to which both men said 'no'. Now it is possible that one or both was lying, but men walking in and out of the club/yard is no big deal.

Remember that Lave said he was first in the yard before walking to the street. How do know Eagle doesn't go in the side door while Lave was down near the Arbeter Fraint rooms, therefore missing him? Does your theory not allow for these possibilities?



There is a point about Lave that makes me somewhat suspicious. Mrs Deimschitz said to a reporter:

It was just one o'clock when my husband came home. Some twenty minutes previously a member of the club had entered by the side door, but he states that he did not then notice anybody lying prostrate in the yard. It was, however, very dark at the time, and he might, in consequence, have failed to see any such object on the ground.

It seems she was talking about Eagle, who said similar things at the inquest. Now, presumably Eagle was the last man to enter the side door before the discovery, and the front door was already locked by then. How could Lave return inside before 12:40, having been in the yard as far as the street, for 10 minutes or so, and not see Stride with the man she was seen with by PC Smith? Was Lave temporarily staying at the club itself, or one of the tenements?

I believe Lave is staying in one of the cottages in the passageway, he is a photographer and likely did some work for the club, or the paper perhaps. I also think that references to the yard are not always a specific reference to the yard itself, I think by reading the coverage that people referred to being in the accessway to the yard as "the yard". Could Lave have missed seeing Eagle? Maybe, but could Eagle miss seeing Liz Stride...she is very likely in that passageway after Smith leaves, no other witness save Israel sees her out and about after then. Could Eagle have missed seeing Lave strolling about in the yard..maybe. But if Lave is back at the gates around 12:45, then why doesnt he see Israel, BSM, Pipeman and the victim out in front of the gates?

Its what they didnt see that is the issue.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I believe Lave is staying in one of the cottages in the passageway, he is a photographer and likely did some work for the club, or the paper perhaps. I also think that references to the yard are not always a specific reference to the yard itself, I think by reading the coverage that people referred to being in the accessway to the yard as "the yard". Could Lave have missed seeing Eagle? Maybe, but could Eagle miss seeing Liz Stride...she is very likely in that passageway after Smith leaves, no other witness save Israel sees her out and about after then. Could Eagle have missed seeing Lave strolling about in the yard..maybe. But if Lave is back at the gates around 12:45, then why doesnt he see Israel, BSM, Pipeman and the victim out in front of the gates?

Woolf Wess was a photographer - what makes you think Lave was too?

I also take the yard as meaning the outside area inside the line of the gateway.

Eagle could have missed Stride if he arrived back before Smith was on the scene. Is that not a possibility?

Why doesn't Lave see Israel, BSM, Pipeman and the victim out in front of the gates? Perhaps because it's a fake story.

Its what they didnt see that is the issue.

The other thing with Eagle is that he may have seen Stride on the street, and not taken any notice, or perhaps he did notice but did not want to admit to it, perhaps out of embarrassment. Another possibility is that Stride was further down the yard, and Eagle did not notice her presence as he made his way to the side door.

[Michael W Richards]

Woolf Wess was a photographer - what makes you think Lave was too?

I also take the yard as meaning the outside area inside the line of the gateway.

Eagle could have missed Stride if he arrived back before Smith was on the scene. Is that not a possibility?

Why doesn't Lave see Israel, BSM, Pipeman and the victim out in front of the gates? Perhaps because it's a fake story.



The other thing with Eagle is that he may have seen Stride on the street, and not taken any notice, or perhaps he did notice but did not want to admit to it, perhaps out of embarrassment. Another possibility is that Stride was further down the yard, and Eagle did not notice her presence as he made his way to the side door.

I believe its reported that Lave was an American photographer staying there, and Wess is of course busy with his print media activities. I think the phrase "the yard" is used by some of those interviewed with the broad anywhere inside the gates intention,but its technically a passageway that leads to the yard as we know. If Eagle actually returned at 12:40... which is his estimated time, and he saw absolutely no-one on the street or just inside the gates, then 3 witnesses and one passer-by are all wrong in their times by something like 20-25 minutes. Funny that they would all be off by the same amount of time.....

I think its most probable that after Liz is last seen by a witness that can be trusted she goes into that passageway. Whatever she is at that location for it has to do with the club or someone in it. And she seems to be waiting. Ive suggested a scenario before that.... what if Eagles second date that night is Liz Stride, and after dropping off the lady who was his company at the meeting he returns for Liz. He says wait here and goes inside to collect his pay for speaking that night, a few minutes later he hears a woman is found bleeding inside the gates, and he rushes down to see if its Liz. Maybe at 12:40. Issac K also heads down, so do some others. In the passageway Louis decides to send men for help, and he or some other member tells Issac Kozebrodski to get help. Eagle also heads out...and shortly thereafter Louis and and unidentified member named Issac[s] head out to be seen by Spooner.

So, with Liz now dead, does Eagle tell the police he was her intended date? Does that incriminate him, or at least make them look harder at him? Did anyone else know that Eagle told this woman to meet him there at that time? Do they have to know, after all...shes dead, he cant help her...he doesnt know who did it but doesnt want to be linked with this, so he says he saw nothing when he returned and went upstairs to join the gang.

Interesting storyline I think, and interestingly the timing works perfectly with Lambs comment that he saw the men "just before," or "around", 1am. And therefore it also works with Johnson, and Blackwell too. It doesnt work with Israel, Louis, Eagle and Laves statements. And that really isnt a surprise to me. If anyone might have felt some pressure to appear completely innocent in this it would be the senior staff of the club.

As for Israels story, I do not believe that even if he did see anything, it was at the same time and in the way he described it..

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I believe its reported that Lave was an American photographer staying there, and Wess is of course busy with his print media activities. I think the phrase "the yard" is used by some of those interviewed with the broad anywhere inside the gates intention,but its technically a passageway that leads to the yard as we know. If Eagle actually returned at 12:40... which is his estimated time, and he saw absolutely no-one on the street or just inside the gates, then 3 witnesses and one passer-by are all wrong in their times by something like 20-25 minutes. Funny that they would all be off by the same amount of time.....

If you want to check these things, just use Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Search Press Reports.

It's interesting to contrast the life situation of Lave with that of Schwartz (according to press reports).

Our next informant was Joseph Lave, a man just arrived in England from the United States. Lave is now living at the club, till such time as he can find permanent lodgings. What he tells us is this: "I was in the yard of the club this morning about twenty minutes to one. At half-past twelve I had come out into the street to get a breath of fresh air. There was nothing unusual in the street. So far as I could see I was out in the street about half an hour, and while I was out nobody came into the yard, nor did I see anybody moving about there in a way to excite my suspicions."

The reporter's Hungarian was quite as imperfect as the foreigner's English, but an interpreter was at hand, and the man's story was retold just as he had given it to the police. It is, in fact, to the effect that he saw the whole thing. It seems that he had gone out for the day, and his wife had expected to move, during his absence, from their lodgings in Berner-street to others in Backchurch-lane. When he came homewards about a quarter before one he first walked down Berner-street to see if his wife had moved.

Like yourself, I really wonder about the location of their lodgings in Berner St.

I think its most probable that after Liz is last seen by a witness that can be trusted she goes into that passageway. Whatever she is at that location for it has to do with the club or someone in it. And she seems to be waiting. Ive suggested a scenario before that.... what if Eagles second date that night is Liz Stride, and after dropping off the lady who was his company at the meeting he returns for Liz. He says wait here and goes inside to collect his pay for speaking that night, a few minutes later he hears a woman is found bleeding inside the gates, and he rushes down to see if its Liz. Maybe at 12:40. Issac K also heads down, so do some others. In the passageway Louis decides to send men for help, and he or some other member tells Issac Kozebrodski to get help. Eagle also heads out...and shortly thereafter Louis and and unidentified member named Issac[s] head out to be seen by Spooner.

So, with Liz now dead, does Eagle tell the police he was her intended date? Does that incriminate him, or at least make them look harder at him? Did anyone else know that Eagle told this woman to meet him there at that time? Do they have to know, after all...shes dead, he cant help her...he doesnt know who did it but doesnt want to be linked with this, so he says he saw nothing when he returned and went upstairs to join the gang.

Interesting storyline I think, and interestingly the timing works perfectly with Lambs comment that he saw the men "just before," or "around", 1am. And therefore it also works with Johnson, and Blackwell too. It doesnt work with Israel, Louis, Eagle and Laves statements. And that really isnt a surprise to me. If anyone might have felt some pressure to appear completely innocent in this it would be the senior staff of the club.

As for Israels story, I do not believe that even if he did see anything, it was at the same time and in the way he described it..

I struggle with the notion of Eagle and Stride having a romantic connection, just based on the age difference.

[Michael W Richards]

I struggle with the notion of Eagle and Stride having a romantic connection, just based on the age difference.

A Victorian cougar?, ....maybe not so rare a cat.

[Michael W Richards]

Did Israel and his wife, having known of William Wess before that night, have a cottage in that passageway they moved from? Did Israel go down to the passageway to check to see if the move was complete, or did he come in from the street to check?

Why dont we know where Israel and his wife were living that morning before the move? Its said they lived "on Berner Street", we know Wess and Schwarz knew of each other prior to that night, so....did they move from one of those cottages?

I believe its quite plausible that they did. The census taking of those cottages was not complete at that time.

[Michael W Richards]

Question....if it could be established that Schwartz and his wife were living in one of those cottages until that morning, would that cause some people to question the integrity of his statement...might he be beholding to the club or his friend Wess for letting him stay there?

[Mark J D]

Hi again.

As for Israel's story, I do not believe that even if he did see anything, it was at the same time and in the way he described it..

Like you, I am deeply suspicious of Schwartz's story. But isn't it the case that parts of it are corroborated by (i) the bruising around Stride's shoulders and (ii) that report of someone being seen as they are chased south?

Mark D.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi again.



Like you, I am deeply suspicious of Schwartz's story. But isn't it the case that parts of it are corroborated by (i) the bruising around Stride's shoulders and (ii) that report of someone being seen as they are chased south?

Mark D.

Im not sure Id feel any better about the story based on those 2 potential links Mark. You know, there are witnesses there who we hear very little from but they must have seen..or possibly heard.... things had they happened out in the street. The young couple. Fanny said that they were in the area that whole time, we hear that they were interviewed and also that Fanny spoke with them after, both parties confirming that they saw or heard nothing on that street. Until Fanny spotted Leon anyway.

You can suggest some physical evidence could be the result of....but the only truly relevant corroboration would be a witness who saw any one of these men. 3 men. Out of the blue they suddenly appear, and before Fanny comes back to the door..they all vanish again. Many people like to point out Fannys comments about things she heard pass out on the street while she was inside, yet she didnt hear anything. No woman soft scream or grunt as Liz hits the ground, no "Lipski" shout, no sound at all from the 8 boots moving about on the cobbles. She hears bootsteps apparently, but not multiple boots steps?

[Michael W Richards]

From Louis Diemshitz, the Echo Oct 1st, Inquest transcripts...." I found her on the ground floor. I had left my pony in the yard by itself, just outside the back door. Several members were on the ground floor, and I told them there was a woman, but I could not tell them whether she was drunk or dead. I got a candle, and at once went into the yard, where I saw a quantity of blood near the body. I did not touch the body. I...(not plural)....went for a policeman, but could not find one. When looking for the police, I told a young man of the affair...(Spooner), and he came with me back to the yard. The young man lifted up the woman's head, and then I saw that the throat was cut. At this time a constable came up..(Lamb). A doctor had been sent for, and he arrived ten minutes after the constable....(Johnson)"

So, in this account Louis has arrived and gone inside to notify folks and get a candle, then he goes running for help, finds only Spooner, whom he returns with. Spooner lifts the womans head. Then Lamb arrives, and 10 minutes later, Johnson. He also says that some men were on the ground floor.

People have been arguing with me about contesting Louis stated arrival time for what seems like, ever. To all of those folks, read this quote attributed to Louis on the stand at the Inquest. Seems fine right? He finds the woman, goes indoors to get help, comes back out with help...then he goes for Police help, but only finds Spooner, who he brings back with him. Spooner checks out the woman, and the next person to arrive is Lamb, 10 minutes later its Johnson. We have Spooners account, and Lambs and Johnsons, and none of them suggest any different actions or appearances. All good?

Ok...then how is it everyone believes that all the men remaining were upstairs? Not according to Louis. How is it that Louis stated arrival time of "precisely" 1am isnt contested vigorously when his own sequence of events suggests that he found the woman, went indoors, came back out, went to look for Police which he didnt find, tells Spooner to come with him then they both arrive at the gates, next outside person to arrive is Lamb who says he got there "just before 1", then Johnson, who says he arrived at 1:10am.

How much time would it take for Louis to get down off his horse, light 2 matches, go indoors and call for help from the attendees, return to the alleyway, then go to try and find a policeman, which he doesnt, then return to the gates, and a few minutes later Lamb arrives at around 1am.

1.If he actually arrived at precisely 1, could Lamb have been there after seeing Eagle looking for help?
2. If Lamb sees Eagle "just before 1", then what time must Eagle have gone out searching for help from the club?
3. If Eagle went out at approximately 5-10 minutes before eventually seeing Lamb at just before 1, then what time was the body first discovered? What time approximately did Eagle go for help?
4. Could Louis and Spooner be by the body just before Lamb arrives around 1 if Louis doesnt even arrive until 1?
5. Could Issac K have seen Eagle and joined him and Lamb then headed back to the club if he had gone out with Louis instead and met Spooner? Issac K says he saw Eagle and joined him, Louis says he went out with Issac[s]. People assume Issac[s] is Issac K, even though his own statement is that he was sent out BY Louis or some other member.

Read the quote above...then question why we are led to believe that all the men were upstairs at the time, that Louis arrived at 1, and that Louis left with Issac K for help. All 3 beliefs are actually incorrect, fairly obviously.

Now, use what Louis says in the quote above, but make the assumed time he heads out for help around 12:45. That statement actually works well now, based on an earlier arrival by Louis.

[New Waterloo]

I wondered if anybody could assist me. Do we know who the landlord of The Nelson Beer House/pub was at the time. Could he be pipeman, watching the coming and goings of the members of the club. Was he very annoyed at the fact that he had to close his doors and stop selling drink whilst the club stayed open and sold alcohol whilst people sang and danced. I think it would be reasonable to suggest that he wouldn't be very happy. Maybe not the killer but maybe would get involved with any disturbance. You know winding things up a bit. Packer had a lot to say was the landlord of the Nelson spoken to by police. Do we know? (anyone please) Thanks NW

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I wondered if anybody could assist me. Do we know who the landlord of The Nelson Beer House/pub was at the time. Could he be pipeman, watching the coming and goings of the members of the club. Was he very annoyed at the fact that he had to close his doors and stop selling drink whilst the club stayed open and sold alcohol whilst people sang and danced. I think it would be reasonable to suggest that he wouldn't be very happy. Maybe not the killer but maybe would get involved with any disturbance. You know winding things up a bit. Packer had a lot to say was the landlord of the Nelson spoken to by police. Do we know? (anyone please) Thanks NW

Casebook: Jack the Ripper - The House Where Jack Swilled?

There is little indication the police new the identity of Pipeman. Had he been Louis Hagens, he must have lied about what he had seen and done that night and got away with it. Are you sure this Pipeman character existed?

[Michael W Richards]

Just trying again to sort this out. The Story is that Israel turns onto Berner St and notices a man in front of him, on the same side of the street, weaving as if intoxicated. He goes up to a woman standing just outside the gates at 40 Berner St, so Israel crosses the street. He walks past the couple and in just few yards he hears "the sound of a quarrel", and he turns back to see what was the matter. Thats when he sees Pipeman, a "few doors down". The Nelson was on the corner of Fairclough and Berner, #46, so if Pipeman comes from that entranceway, he is across the street from Israel and at the corner. So why did he say "from a few doors down"? Presumably he is looking back to see what was going on...so is a few doors down towards #38,# 36,#34? Or did he mean a few doors towards #46 at the corner? Also, since this Pipeman is the knife-carrying man..and he heads towards BSM and Liz, might he be far more likely to have been the man that kills Liz?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Just trying again to sort this out. The Story is that Israel turns onto Berner St and notices a man in front of him, on the same side of the street, weaving as if intoxicated. He goes up to a woman standing just outside the gates at 40 Berner St, so Israel crosses the street. He walks past the couple and in just few yards he hears "the sound of a quarrel", and he turns back to see what was the matter. Thats when he sees Pipeman, a "few doors down". The Nelson was on the corner of Fairclough and Berner, #46, so if Pipeman comes from that entranceway, he is across the street from Israel and at the corner. So why did he say "from a few doors down"? Presumably he is looking back to see what was going on...so is a few doors down towards #38,# 36,#34? Or did he mean a few doors towards #46 at the corner? Also, since this Pipeman is the knife-carrying man..and he heads towards BSM and Liz, might he be far more likely to have been the man that kills Liz?

You're right Michael. The Nelson was not a few doors off, it was across the road. This can't be casually ignored.

In the press account, the second man rushes Schwartz with a knife, apparently because he was intruding. On what? The first man is quarrelling with the woman. Over what? I'd suggest something like money. I can't see this man going on to kill her. It's more likely that the men were common thieves. Schwartz is chased for his work bag and other on-person possessions. Remember he turned up to Leman St police station, "well dressed". Stride was relatively well dressed too.