The Double Event

[c.d.]

Hello Harry,

What reason do you think Schwartz had for lying?

c.d.

[c.d.]

Except Schwartz identified the victim as Stride, and it's hard to believe there was an unrelated assault on a woman a few minutes before one is found dead in the same spot. Either Schwartz witnessed Stride with her killer moments before her death or he was lying.

Schwartz spun a good yarn but I see little reason to support his version of events and every reason to question them.

Hello Harry,

Well there are assaults and then there are assaults. As I stated earlier, Schwartz simply could have witnessed a simple street hassle. So I see no reason to limit ourselves to saying that he either witnessed Stride with her killer or that he was lying. Even Swanson allowed for the possibility that what Schwartz saw was unrelated to her death.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

Schwartz spun a good yarn but I see little reason to support his version of events and every reason to question them.

Fair enough, but why do you think Swanson did believe Schwartz?

And, who do you think would have been tasked with investigating Schwartz's story, the police at Leman St. Stn. or the Detectives at Scotland Yard?

[Harry D]

Well for all the Schwartz doubters he never said he saw Stride being killed. He might simply have been describing a not uncommon street scene between a drunk man and a woman on the street..

Except Schwartz identified the victim as Stride, and it's hard to believe there was an unrelated assault on a woman a few minutes before one is found dead in the same spot. Either Schwartz witnessed Stride with her killer moments before her death or he was lying.

Schwartz spun a good yarn but I see little reason to support his version of events and every reason to question them.

[Joshua Rogan]

Ah, ok, cheers John. I'd not spotted that one before.

[John G]

Are you perhaps thinking of the Star 1st Oct?

"The police have arrested one man answering the description the Hungarian furnishes. This prisoner has not been charged, but is held for inquiries to be made. The truth of the man's statement is not wholly accepted."

Surely this refers to the man who was detained as the one who is doubted, rather than Schwartz. Or are you thinking of other articles?

No, a follow-up report in The Star the following day:

"In the matter of the Hungarian who said he saw a struggle between a man and a woman in the passage where Stride's body was afterwards found, the Leman-Street police have reason to doubt the truth of the story. "

[Joshua Rogan]

Good points Harry. Plus there are newspaper accounts stating that the police had reason to doubt Schwartz's evidence.

Are you perhaps thinking of the Star 1st Oct?

"The police have arrested one man answering the description the Hungarian furnishes. This prisoner has not been charged, but is held for inquiries to be made. The truth of the man's statement is not wholly accepted."

Surely this refers to the man who was detained as the one who is doubted, rather than Schwartz. Or are you thinking of other articles?

[c.d.]

For those that want an angry B.S. man to be Stride's killer you need to come up with an explanation for why she was not killed where Schwartz last saw her. She had to have gone willingly or have been dragged to where she was found. It is hard to believe that she would have gone willingly with an angry drunk man who pushed her to the ground and who threatened Schwartz with harm. It must have occurred to her that it was not his intention to discuss the weather. If she were dragged she must have realized that at the very least she was in for a good beating or that she was being dragged to her death. In any case, you would expect her to try and fight off her attacker. Yet, the cachous, which were simply wrapped in tissue paper (and which had somehow already survived her being thrown to the ground and her getting up) never came out of her hand. Possible but still hard to believe. I think it indicates that she was at ease with her killer which hardly seems the case if it were the B.S. man.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Well for all the Schwartz doubters he never said he saw Stride being killed. He might simply have been describing a not uncommon street scene between a drunk man and a woman on the street.

Harry, your point about the cachous is a good one but Fanny Mortimer was at her door off and on by her own admission. I think she simply missed what took place.

c.d.

[John G]

Was it a coincidence that Schwartz picked a time (12.45) that none of the other witnesses could account for ?




Did Mortimer say she was at her door at 12.45 ?
Could she see the club gates from her doorway ?

Except perhaps for PC Smith, because I believe the evidence shows he was about 10 minutes out with his estimated timings, i.e. I think it likely he saw Stride with a suspect at 12:40-12:45, not 12:30-12:35.

[John G]

Schwartz's account is questionable at best.

Stride's murder would suggest that she was either taken by surprise and/or at ease with her killer shortly before her death. I don't suppose she was clenching those cachous for dear life while her assailant was dragging her into the yard for a good ripping.

We only have Schwartz's word for it that this altercation took place. His evidence conflicts with Fanny Mortimer who was stood two doors down from the scene of the crime and didn't hear or see anything untoward at this time.

Good points Harry. Plus there are newspaper accounts stating that the police had reason to doubt Schwartz's evidence. And, of course, Abberline appeared to abandon him as a witness when he subsequently argued that anyone who had seen the Ripper had only had a back view. Finally, we have to ask why Lawende was preferred as a witness, for subsequent identifications, despite the fact that he clearly had a more obscure view of a suspect than Schwartz.

[Jon Guy]

We only have Schwartz's word for it that this altercation took place. .

Was it a coincidence that Schwartz picked a time (12.45) that none of the other witnesses could account for ?

His evidence conflicts with Fanny Mortimer who was stood two doors down from the scene of the crime and didn't hear or see anything untoward at this time.

Did Mortimer say she was at her door at 12.45 ?
Could she see the club gates from her doorway ?

[Harry D]

wow. I'm surprised so many discount Schwartz-hes a perfectly legitamite witness.

Schwartz's account is questionable at best.

Stride's murder would suggest that she was either taken by surprise and/or at ease with her killer shortly before her death. I don't suppose she was clenching those cachous for dear life while her assailant was dragging her into the yard for a good ripping.

We only have Schwartz's word for it that this altercation took place. His evidence conflicts with Fanny Mortimer who was stood two doors down from the scene of the crime and didn't hear or see anything untoward at this time.

[Abby Normal]

Okay Abby, you've got my attention.

But one question, how common were peaked caps as a form of head dress during the period? I fear it would be like saying he was seen in a tracksuit if it happened today?

I'm in no doubt Stride was murdered by the guy Schwartz saw pushing her to the floor (was that Jack???). What are the odds or her coming to blows with another assailant shortly afterwards, who befriends her then kills her. Jack then walks all the way Mitre square past numerous police officers, vigilantes and members of the public (having just cut some women's throat and been disturbed as we are lead to believe). He then finds another victim who he again befriends in a few minutes, kills her cuts her up (all within a very small period of time). Then walks to Goulston Street, drops the bloody apron (I'm not going down the graffiti route), then makes good his escape past all the police, etc and back "home".

Hi Cat
I'm sure they were fairly common. But when you have multiple witnesses at the stride scene and eddowes scene all claiming to see the victim with a man with a peaked cap I think its a safe conclusion that its the same man. It made an impression with Abberline. see my sig below.

If you look at the whole series of events that night I think we can see a fairly reasonable sequence of what took place.

The ripper is out hunting. He meets Stride-perhaps out in a pub.Shes recently broken up with kidney-perhaps shes out looking for another boyfriend/sugar daddy but not necessarily actively solicitating. Along with that Leather apron scare is in full on mode so maybe shes wary of that too and isn't going to jump right in the sack with first man she meets.

Her and BS man/ripper are seen by several witnesses over the course of some time. Hes trying to finagle her into a secluded place, but because of afore mentioned reasons she reluctant.

Marshall witnesses them together and hears the man say-"you would say anything but your prayers." funny thing to say-what kind of conversation would exhibit such a response? Well if best and gardner saw Stride, they had said to her when they saw her with a man earlier at a pub- "that's leather Apron getting around you". maybe that's in the back of her mind then.

I believe her conversation that marshall witnessed the end of, may have gone something like this:

Stride: (half jokingly) Your not Leather Apron are you?
Man: (also half jokingly)You never know.
Stride: Well I had better say my prayers.
Man: you would say anything but your prayers

Hes trying to get her into a secluded place but shes not going. hes getting a little frustrsated. hes with her now near the club and PC Smith witnessed them and passes by. The ripper/BS man agitated by the cop tries one more time to get her in the ally, She refuses and he cuts his loss and leaves her fuming. As hes walking away he thinks of the time and possibly money (drinks, the flower maybe?) hes wasted on her, looses his temper and turns around angrily and returns to her. this is where Schwartz enters the scene. He assaults her, sees heavily looking jewish Schwartz see it, yells Lipski! to scare him off. around this point he cuts her throat. maybe there on the street, maybe in the yard and maybe also disturbed yet again by another jew in Diemshitz. Its getting to hot so he bolts.

Not satisfied, he goes to look for another victim but stops in Church street to gain his composure, maybe wipe his hands, knife ect. This is where anonymous sighting takes place.

He soon after finds Eddowes, drunk and maybe desperate to get some quick coin, and shes more amenable to engaging in an act of prostitution and accompany him to a secluded spot. This is where Lawende and company see him schmoozing her outside Mitre square. again more jews.

He gets her in mitre square, kills, mutilates her and makes off with his trophy to his bolt hole. But hes still angered at all the jews that interrupted him, jews who will shortly probably giving the police HIS description.

So he cleans up a bit, stashed the knife and trophy, grabs some chalk and heads out to write the GSG and "sign" it with Eddowes bloody apron-to get back at said jews and to perhaps divert police attention in that direction. This would explain why it wasn't there when Long went by the first time.

He goes back to his bolt hole to enjoy an evening with his goodies probably reliving the fantasy and reveling in the fact that the police, witnesses and all of London is in a tizzy.

[Abby Normal]

wow. I'm surprised so many discount Schwartz-hes a perfectly legitamite witness.