The Mysterious Dr Gabe

[David Orsam]

Or perhaps not so mysterious.

Following on from the discussion in the broken window thread, please see:

http://www.orsam.co.uk/themysteriousdrgabe.htm

[drstrange169]

Interesting find, thanks.

Over at JtrForums some researchers have discovered, Mary Kelly"s "guest" Maria Harvey had a child and that might be the source of the newspaper stories.
Specifically Barnett's "had a little boy ... living with her".

[David Orsam]

Specifically Barnett's "had a little boy ... living with her".

Yes, but Dusty, Barnett didn't say that MJK had a little boy living with her. The supposed quotation you have given derives from the misleading way the Star newspaper presented its report on 10 November.

[drstrange169]

Yes, bad sentence construction on my part. I was referring to the story itself rather than Barnett making it.

[Rosella]

^ Actually Debra A. found that Maria had two young sons, one born in 1882 and the younger in 1884. Where these two young boys were at the time of Mary's murder and a little before, when Maria was sharing Kelly's room, is a mystery.

William, the elder boy, was run over by a cart in June of 1888 and conveyed to the London Hospital. At that time he was living in Dorset Court off Dorset St, though whether he was with his mother at that address or with some other relative or family friend isn't known.

[Mayerling]

^ Actually Debra A. found that Maria had two young sons, one born in 1882 and the younger in 1884. Where these two young boys were at the time of Mary's murder and a little before, when Maria was sharing Kelly's room, is a mystery.

William, the elder boy, was run over by a cart in June of 1888 and conveyed to the London Hospital. At that time he was living in Dorset Court off Dorset St, though whether he was with his mother at that address or with some other relative or family friend isn't known.

Run over by a cart? What was the cause of this accident (if you know)?

Jeff

[Debra A]

^ Actually Debra A. found that Maria had two young sons, one born in 1882 and the younger in 1884. Where these two young boys were at the time of Mary's murder and a little before, when Maria was sharing Kelly's room, is a mystery.

William, the elder boy, was run over by a cart in June of 1888 and conveyed to the London Hospital. At that time he was living in Dorset Court off Dorset St, though whether he was with his mother at that address or with some other relative or family friend isn't known.

Thanks Rosella.
Just to put this a little more in context; It was you mentioning that a John Harvey age 6 of Dorset Ct Dorset St was run over in June 1888 according to Lloyds Newspaper that triggered my memory of the Maria Harvey I had looked at in the records a long tme back but couldn't locate her anywhere else except the workhouse and creed records for St George East.

No other maria Harvey I'd looked at seemed to fit but this one was a similar age and status to MJK (destitute) and had two children with her. The oldest, John was born in 1882 and si I thought he could be a possible fit for the Dorset Court John, id hi mother Maria was the same woman MJK knew, of course. There was also a son named William born 1884.

There isn't much record of the family after 1890. John was sent to a Roman catholic School in between workhouse stays until his mother collected him.
It's a suggestion of a link, but needs a lot more work. Wolf vanderlinden kindly posted the newspaper article that said the child mentioned on other news reports was actually the son of a woman who had been staying with MJK (something like that, please don't lynch me if I haven't got that exact)

[Rosella]

^ Thank you very much, Debra. It was John, not William, my bad! I wonder why Maria and William Harvey drop out of census and other records. Death for either or both, a marriage for Maria, perhaps?

Sorry, Jeff, just a brief mention in Lloyds newspaper that John Harvey aged six had been knocked over by a cart in Commercial Road and taken to the London hospital. It probably wasn't unusual in those days, unsupervised young children playing among the carts and dashing about in the traffic.

[David Orsam]

The little boy, to the extent he existed, is only relevant to this thread if he was living/staying with MJK during the night of 8/9 November. As to that, the notion that Barnett said there was a boy living with MJK having been comprehensively debunked, there is no credible evidence or reason to believe it. And where could such a boy possibly have been when MJK was being murdered? No child living or staying with MJK during the night of 8/9 November means no Dr Gabe attending because of that child, which is all I am really saying.

[RockySullivan]

^ Thank you very much, Debra. It was John, not William, my bad! I wonder why Maria and William Harvey drop out of census and other records. Death for either or both, a marriage for Maria, perhaps?

Sorry, Jeff, just a brief mention in Lloyds newspaper that John Harvey aged six had been knocked over by a cart in Commercial Road and taken to the London hospital. It probably wasn't unusual in those days, unsupervised young children playing among the carts and dashing about in the traffic.

Wonder if Maria Harvey could have been the pinchin torso? There is record of her after that right?

[Mayerling]

^ Thank you very much, Debra. It was John, not William, my bad! I wonder why Maria and William Harvey drop out of census and other records. Death for either or both, a marriage for Maria, perhaps?

Sorry, Jeff, just a brief mention in Lloyds newspaper that John Harvey aged six had been knocked over by a cart in Commercial Road and taken to the London hospital. It probably wasn't unusual in those days, unsupervised young children playing among the carts and dashing about in the traffic.

Thanks Rosella. I thought it might have been part of a series of incidents that showed someone might have been going after Mary and her kids.

Jeff

[drstrange169]

>>No child living or staying with MJK during the night of 8/9 November means no Dr Gabe attending because of that child, which is all I am really saying.<<

I think your article presents a credible, even likely reason for Dr. Gabe attending in another capacity.

But the possibility, remote that it might be, that the rumour of a child being involved may have prompted authorities to contact a child doctor still exists.

There was also the stories that Mary Kelly was pregnant, which was possibly why an obstetrician (Dukes) was called in.

In the end five doctors does seems a bit of overkill.

[Rosella]

Rocky, it's not even clear if these two boys and this Maria Harvey are connected to Mary Kelly the JTR victim at all. It's just that the Maria that Debra tracked had two boys, seems of right approximate age and was desperately poor. Like a lot of destitute men and women in Victorian England she seems to have been in and out of workhouses/charity wards on a fairly consistent basis. If Debra has tracked her (and one son) to around 1890 that's too late for her to be the Pinchin Torso, isn't it?

[David Orsam]

In the end five doctors does seems a bit of overkill.

Well it depends on the order in which they turned up.

If the three local doctors were there first (Dukes and Gabe having been summoned by Phillips), followed by Brown then Bond (sent there by Scotland Yard), it makes perfect sense without being 'overkill'.

[David Orsam]

There was also the stories that Mary Kelly was pregnant, which was possibly why an obstetrician (Dukes) was called in

Or why a gynaecologist was called in, as mentioned in my article.