Is There More To Bond's Death Than Meets The Eye?

[Abby Normal]

I'm joining this thread a bit late so I apologise if I've missed something. To reply to a few points that have been raised:
The Hippocratic Oath has never been a part of British Medical tradition although in recent years a few medical schools have taken to including it in their graduation ceremonies. I know of no doctor of my generation (I qualified in 1967) who took it and it certainly was not usual in Bond's time.
Bond himself, although a Fellow of the Royal College of Surgeons, was employed by the Westminster Hospital in the Out Patients department so had very little operating experience which leads me to question his pronouncement that JTR had no surgical skill (and he only saw Mary Jane Kelly's body which was so badly mutilated that it was impossible to tell).
Whilst he may have had prostate cancer (and I haven't seen his Death Certificate) he certainly had a painful urethral stricture and the commonest cause of that in the 19th century was gonorrhoea. He was something of a religious bigot and so very likely to have been tortured both by the stricture itself and the guilt of how it was acquired (which may have been during his time with the Prussian Army).I know of at least three doctors, all contemporaries of mine, who died by throwing themselves off tall buildings even though they had ready access to narcotic drugs.
Bond was a very curious character but I don't believe that he was in any way implicated in the Whitechapel murders other than in his official capacity.
Prosector

Hi prosector
welcome back! where you been? Your expert input is very much appreciated!

Ive also very much wondered about Bonds statement about the ripper not having any medical/surgical skill and think it might partly be from the fact that he didn't want to associate his profession in any way with the ripper, or vice versus. We saw the reaction of the medicos against Baxters "American doctor" story, so it wouldn't surprise me.

BTW-the last we heard from you awhile ago, was that you were about to publish a book on the ripper that I believe you said was going to introduce a suspect? Where are you with that because im very interested.

[Debra A]

I'm joining this thread a bit late so I apologise if I've missed something. To reply to a few points that have been raised:
The Hippocratic Oath has never been a part of British Medical tradition although in recent years a few medical schools have taken to including it in their graduation ceremonies. I know of no doctor of my generation (I qualified in 1967) who took it and it certainly was not usual in Bond's time.
Bond himself, although a Fellow of the Royal College of Surgeons, was employed by the Westminster Hospital in the Out Patients department so had very little operating experience which leads me to question his pronouncement that JTR had no surgical skill (and he only saw Mary Jane Kelly's body which was so badly mutilated that it was impossible to tell).
Whilst he may have had prostate cancer (and I haven't seen his Death Certificate) he certainly had a painful urethral stricture and the commonest cause of that in the 19th century was gonorrhoea. He was something of a religious bigot and so very likely to have been tortured both by the stricture itself and the guilt of how it was acquired (which may have been during his time with the Prussian Army).I know of at least three doctors, all contemporaries of mine, who died by throwing themselves off tall buildings even though they had ready access to narcotic drugs.
Bond was a very curious character but I don't believe that he was in any way implicated in the Whitechapel murders other than in his official capacity.
Prosector

Hi Prosector.

Just to clarify- I found the snippet that claimed Bond was suffering from prostrate cancer in one of the published 'Westminster Hospital Reports' from 1903. It was included in a lengthy "In Memoriam" piece written by F De Havilland Hall, M.D.
I had presumed (perhaps wrongly?) that the death certificate would only record the cause of death in line with the inquest verdict of suicide?

[Prosector]

Hi Prosector.

Just to clarify- I found the snippet that claimed Bond was suffering from prostrate cancer in one of the published 'Westminster Hospital Reports' from 1903. It was included in a lengthy "In Memoriam" piece written by F De Havilland Hall, M.D.
I had presumed (perhaps wrongly?) that the death certificate would only record the cause of death in line with the inquest verdict of suicide?

HI Debra, Hi Abby

Firstly, yes I quite agree that there was a great deal of protectionism going on amongst the doctors. Even Phillips who went further than most in saying that anatomical and surgical skill was displayed shied away from saying that the culprit was actually a doctor and seemed to favour a medical student if anything.

Thank you for the extract from the Westminster Hospital Reports. Without seeing the post mortem report or the death certificate it doesn't absolutely settle the case and it may be that, again, cancer of the prostate was seen as a more respectable thing for a doctor to be suffering from than gonorrhoea. The death certificate should report all bodily pathology, not just the cause of death and I may send for it.

Abby, my book is being published on 13th August and will introduce both a new suspect and, I hope, settle, as near as it can ever be, the identity of MJK.

Prosector

[GUT]

HI Debra, Hi Abby

Firstly, yes I quite agree that there was a great deal of protectionism going on amongst the doctors. Even Phillips who went further than most in saying that anatomical and surgical skill was displayed shied away from saying that the culprit was actually a doctor and seemed to favour a medical student if anything.

Thank you for the extract from the Westminster Hospital Reports. Without seeing the post mortem report or the death certificate it doesn't absolutely settle the case and it may be that, again, cancer of the prostate was seen as a more respectable thing for a doctor to be suffering from than gonorrhoea. The death certificate should report all bodily pathology, not just the cause of death and I may send for it.

Abby, my book is being published on 13th August and will introduce both a new suspect and, I hope, settle, as near as it can ever be, the identity of MJK.

Prosector

The book sounds intriguing.

[Abby Normal]

HI Debra, Hi Abby

Firstly, yes I quite agree that there was a great deal of protectionism going on amongst the doctors. Even Phillips who went further than most in saying that anatomical and surgical skill was displayed shied away from saying that the culprit was actually a doctor and seemed to favour a medical student if anything.

Thank you for the extract from the Westminster Hospital Reports. Without seeing the post mortem report or the death certificate it doesn't absolutely settle the case and it may be that, again, cancer of the prostate was seen as a more respectable thing for a doctor to be suffering from than gonorrhoea. The death certificate should report all bodily pathology, not just the cause of death and I may send for it.

Abby, my book is being published on 13th August and will introduce both a new suspect and, I hope, settle, as near as it can ever be, the identity of MJK.

Prosector

awesome! Thanks looking forward to it!

[Wickerman]

A book by a true medical professional is sorely lacking in these Whitechapel murder cases. I expect the experience of Prosector in the surgical field will put a number of medical misinterpretations to rest, and hopefully provide us all with a better understanding of what certain phrases and terms used by the doctors of the time were intended to indicate.

[Debra A]

HI Debra, Hi Abby

Firstly, yes I quite agree that there was a great deal of protectionism going on amongst the doctors. Even Phillips who went further than most in saying that anatomical and surgical skill was displayed shied away from saying that the culprit was actually a doctor and seemed to favour a medical student if anything.

Thank you for the extract from the Westminster Hospital Reports. Without seeing the post mortem report or the death certificate it doesn't absolutely settle the case and it may be that, again, cancer of the prostate was seen as a more respectable thing for a doctor to be suffering from than gonorrhoea. The death certificate should report all bodily pathology, not just the cause of death and I may send for it.

Abby, my book is being published on 13th August and will introduce both a new suspect and, I hope, settle, as near as it can ever be, the identity of MJK.

Prosector

Thanks, Prosector. I look forward to your book release.

[Natasha]

I'm joining this thread a bit late so I apologise if I've missed something. To reply to a few points that have been raised:
The Hippocratic Oath has never been a part of British Medical tradition although in recent years a few medical schools have taken to including it in their graduation ceremonies. I know of no doctor of my generation (I qualified in 1967) who took it and it certainly was not usual in Bond's time.
Bond himself, although a Fellow of the Royal College of Surgeons, was employed by the Westminster Hospital in the Out Patients department so had very little operating experience which leads me to question his pronouncement that JTR had no surgical skill (and he only saw Mary Jane Kelly's body which was so badly mutilated that it was impossible to tell).
Whilst he may have had prostate cancer (and I haven't seen his Death Certificate) he certainly had a painful urethral stricture and the commonest cause of that in the 19th century was gonorrhoea. He was something of a religious bigot and so very likely to have been tortured both by the stricture itself and the guilt of how it was acquired (which may have been during his time with the Prussian Army).I know of at least three doctors, all contemporaries of mine, who died by throwing themselves off tall buildings even though they had ready access to narcotic drugs.
Bond was a very curious character but I don't believe that he was in any way implicated in the Whitechapel murders other than in his official capacity.
Prosector

HI Debra, Hi Abby

Firstly, yes I quite agree that there was a great deal of protectionism going on amongst the doctors. Even Phillips who went further than most in saying that anatomical and surgical skill was displayed shied away from saying that the culprit was actually a doctor and seemed to favour a medical student if anything.

Thank you for the extract from the Westminster Hospital Reports. Without seeing the post mortem report or the death certificate it doesn't absolutely settle the case and it may be that, again, cancer of the prostate was seen as a more respectable thing for a doctor to be suffering from than gonorrhoea. The death certificate should report all bodily pathology, not just the cause of death and I may send for it.

Abby, my book is being published on 13th August and will introduce both a new suspect and, I hope, settle, as near as it can ever be, the identity of MJK.

Prosector

Hi Prosector,

Thanks for answering my questions, and sharing your opinion on Bond.

Looking forward to the book

[Prosector]

Thanks everyone. I'm looking forward to reaction to the book and prepared for the usual onslaught although I hope I will be introducing enough totally new material and personalities to keep most people quiet for a while as they delve into it.

Apropos of this thread I think that, whilst there was no major conspiracy of the Gull/Duke of Clarence/Masons/Government varieties, there were a number of vested interested who had reasons to be less than frank and this included the medical establishment who suspected (wrongly) that a doctor or medical student was involved and therefore presented things in a slightly skewed way. Even Dr Phillips (to my mind one of the best of the people involved) chose not say that the knife used was almost certainly an amputation knife. He skirted around it by saying what it was not (a post-mortem knife, a leather worker's knife or a butcher's knife unless 'well ground down') but didn't say what it was although I am sure he knew.

Other people who knew more than they said at the time were Sickert and Johnto who both realised who the last victim was but it probably didn't finally dawn on them until some time later but then they both, for their different reasons, chose to keep quiet. Neither were in any way directly involved but they both knew the identity of MJK.

Enough for now, I look forward to your various reactions, hostile or otherwise.

Prosector

[SirJohnFalstaff]

Hi Debra,

In the photo of Hibbert/Hebbert (?) you put out, I notice he is wearing a suit, tie, and vest, but there is some kind of wire cord around this throat which looks like part of some earphone type device (like what we'd find on an old transistor radio). It's not plugged into his ears, and the photo is from about 1918, so it has nothing to do with transistor radios. Do you have any idea what it is?

Jeff

maybe he was hearing impaired.

[EmaEm]

Thanks everyone. I'm looking forward to reaction to the book and prepared for the usual onslaught although I hope I will be introducing enough totally new material and personalities to keep most people quiet for a while as they delve into it.

Apropos of this thread I think that, whilst there was no major conspiracy of the Gull/Duke of Clarence/Masons/Government varieties, there were a number of vested interested who had reasons to be less than frank and this included the medical establishment who suspected (wrongly) that a doctor or medical student was involved and therefore presented things in a slightly skewed way. Even Dr Phillips (to my mind one of the best of the people involved) chose not say that the knife used was almost certainly an amputation knife. He skirted around it by saying what it was not (a post-mortem knife, a leather worker's knife or a butcher's knife unless 'well ground down') but didn't say what it was although I am sure he knew.

Other people who knew more than they said at the time were Sickert and Johnto who both realised who the last victim was but it probably didn't finally dawn on them until some time later but then they both, for their different reasons, chose to keep quiet. Neither were in any way directly involved but they both knew the identity of MJK.

Enough for now, I look forward to your various reactions, hostile or otherwise.

Prosector

Hi, how can you be so sure that a doctor or medical student wasn't involved?