The kidney removal of Catherine Eddowes.

[Trevor Marriott]

Unbelievable! Drs Brown and Sequiera went to the mortuary just after 3.00. They were still there two hours later. What do you suppose that they were doing Trevor. Playing dominoes? Chatting about cricket? Or examining the body? Then we have the fact that Brown was waiting for Phillips arrival. And why did Brown request Phillips presence - to examine the body and compare it to Chapman. You know this…so why are you dodging the obvious?

I answer every one of your questions specifically. You are still ducking and diving.

The only person here who is ducking and diving is you. I have answered your questions if you are not happy with the answers, that's tough I am not going to keep engaging with you on this topic. You clearly have your own agenda, which is not in line with mine. So we will agree to disagree.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Herlock Sholmes]

The only person here who is ducking and diving is you. I have answered your questions if you are not happy with the answers, that's tough I am not going to keep engaging with you on this topic. You clearly have your own agenda, which is not in line with mine. So we will agree to disagree.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

No you haven’t answered them as anyone can see who can read.

Why did you invent organ thieves?

[FrankO]

No, it’s you that needs to stop inventing things simply to make a theory ‘work’ Trevor. You also need to ask yourself why none of the doctors or police officers at the time had any issue with the obvious fact that the killer took organs. None of the doctors saw this as impossible or even unlikely. Again, this is your own invention.

Indeed, Mike. Jack the Ripper cut Nichols's body open from the breastbone to the pubes, leaving her intestines protruding. He opened Chapman between the breastbone to the pubes, cutting three pieces of belly wall away, two of which he put by the shoulders, then he pulled out her intestines and lay them at her shoulders as well. He cut Eddowes's abdomen open from the sternum to the pubes, pulled out her intestines and lay them at her shoulders, cut off a piece of colon and lay it beside her body.

The question shouldn't be "Why would he have cut out any organs and taken them away with him?" but "Why wouldn't he have cut out any organs and taken them away with him?". Jack the Ripper was clearly interested in the female body and especially in what was under their skirts. We know that, because why else would he have risked his very neck to get their skirts out of the way & cut their bellies open? And he clearly wanted to get access to something below the intestines, because why else would he have wanted to pull them out and get them out of the way?

The only known 'organ thief' was Jack the Ripper.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Indeed, Mike. Jack the Ripper cut Nichols's body open from the breastbone to the pubes, leaving her intestines protruding. He opened Chapman between the breastbone to the pubes, cutting three pieces of belly wall away, two of which he put by the shoulders, then he pulled out her intestines and lay them at her shoulders as well. He cut Eddowes's abdomen open from the sternum to the pubes, pulled out her intestines and lay them at her shoulders, cut off a piece of colon and lay it beside her body.

The question shouldn't be "Why would he have cut out any organs and taken them away with him?" but "Why wouldn't he have cut out any organs and taken them away with him?". Jack the Ripper was clearly interested in the female body and especially in what was under their skirts. We know that, because why else would he have risked his very neck to get their skirts out of the way & cut their bellies open? And he clearly wanted to get access to something below the intestines, because why else would he have wanted to pull them out and get them out of the way?

The only known 'organ thief' was Jack the Ripper.

Exactly Frank. I’ve never previously doubted the existence ‘organ thieves’ but after reading-reading Hurren’s article it’s clear that she never mentions people stealing organs from mortuaries but only body dealers. Trevor said that she has mentioned them. I asked for proof and Trevor ‘refused’ to provide it. He then tried to twist it by saying that she had mentioned corrupt mortuary attendants (something that I’d never questioned) But he still ‘refuses’ to produce the alleged mention of organ thieves. How difficult could it be for him to prove himself right but no, nothing.

It’s only reasonable to conclude therefore that neither Professor Hurren (or indeed anyone) has ever given any evidence for the existence of organ thieves. If that is the case then Trevor has invented the phenomena just to facilitate a theory. Not good.

[Trevor Marriott]

Indeed, Mike. Jack the Ripper cut Nichols's body open from the breastbone to the pubes, leaving her intestines protruding. He opened Chapman between the breastbone to the pubes, cutting three pieces of belly wall away, two of which he put by the shoulders, then he pulled out her intestines and lay them at her shoulders as well. He cut Eddowes's abdomen open from the sternum to the pubes, pulled out her intestines and lay them at her shoulders, cut off a piece of colon and lay it beside her body.

The question shouldn't be "Why would he have cut out any organs and taken them away with him?" but "Why wouldn't he have cut out any organs and taken them away with him?". Jack the Ripper was clearly ind outnterested in the female body and especially in what was under their skirts. We know that, because why else would he have risked his very neck to get their skirts out of the way & cut their bellies open? And he clearly wanted to get access to something below the intestines, because why else would he have wanted to pull them out and get them out of the way?

The only known 'organ thief' was Jack the Ripper.

So why do we not see any attempt to remove organs from Stride,Tabram, McKenzie and Coles I will tell you why, because the abdomens of these victims were not opened up sufficiently for the body dealers to remove organs. All of these bodies were the subject of minor abdominal injuries, whereas Chapman and Eddowes had their abdomens fully opened up.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Herlock Sholmes]

So why do we not see any attempt to remove organs from Stride,Tabram, McKenzie and Coles I will tell you why, because the abdomens of these victims were not opened up sufficiently for the body dealers to remove organs. All of these bodies were the subject of minor abdominal injuries, whereas Chapman and Eddowes had their abdomens fully opened up.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Why are you suddenly using the term ‘body dealers’ Trevor.

Because you know that organ thieves don’t exist. These people took whole bodies…they didn’t sneak into mortuaries and start operating. The game is up.

[Trevor Marriott]

Exactly Frank. I’ve never previously doubted the existence ‘organ thieves’ but after reading-reading Hurren’s article it’s clear that she never mentions people stealing organs from mortuaries but only body dealers. Trevor said that she has mentioned them. I asked for proof and Trevor ‘refused’ to provide it. He then tried to twist it by saying that she had mentioned corrupt mortuary attendants (something that I’d never questioned) But he still ‘refuses’ to produce the alleged mention of organ thieves. How difficult could it be for him to prove himself right but no, nothing.

It’s only reasonable to conclude therefore that neither Professor Hurren (or indeed anyone) has ever given any evidence for the existence of organ thieves. If that is the case then Trevor has invented the phenomena just to facilitate a theory. Not good.

I have found this from an old file I belive its quote from either an article or from one of her books

"The dealing in bodies and body parts involved a complex supply chain starting with undertakers, mortuary attendants, infirmary porters, and nurses who would all alert a body dealer of a death and then they would be paid by the body dealer for that information, or in the case of a mortuary attendant allowing access to a mortuary to simply remove body parts from a dead body, as body parts were more lucrative acquisitions than a whole body"

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[FrankO]

So why do we not see any attempt to remove organs from Stride,Tabram, McKenzie and Coles...

Because they were either not Ripper victims or the circumstances were different, Trevor.

[Patrick Differ]

Eddowes was not seen negotiating, a back view of a woman who might have been her was seen briefly, in a dark street, by a man merely walking past her.

Swanson's marginalia has caused numerous problems, including the fact that no other serving officers seem to have been aware of any of his information. One thing is very clear, he talks about a Jew whose evidence would have convicted JtR. The evidence of Lawende and Levy could not possibly have convicted anyone. Unless they were lying on oath, they could not identify that the woman they saw was Eddowes. Eddowes could have been somewhere else nearby, and Lawende said he didn't believe that he would recognise the man if he saw him again. Hopeless witnesses if you want a conviction!

Schwartz would be a better witness, but even his evidence is a bit short of conclusive, and from his version of events, nothing he said suggests that BS man was a Jew.

I thought Eddowes was seen with her hand on the mans chest not in any distress? I suppose that the woman seen by Lawende , Levy, Harris might not have been Eddowes but then no one came forward. If some other woman were engaging around Mitre Square there is no recording of that. The Square would also still be canvassed by Police every 15 minutes.

There is another consideration and that would be recognition of the man they saw with the woman. Im not sure what reason the press chose to characterize Joseph Hyam Levy as a reluctant witness, stating they thought he new something and perhaps appeared aloof. The Press had become more agressive so it could have been accurate.

Why would Schwartz be a better witness? I doubt he tipped off the Police about the Jewish Butcher but someone did. Im curious how that happened. Lawende and Levy did not come forward as they had the knock on the door. Would they have?

Alot of gaps in this case. Keep turning over rocks.

[Trevor Marriott]

Because they were either not Ripper victims or the circumstances were different, Trevor.

Now, how did I know you were going to reply with that answer? So who were the Ripper victims? And what circumstances do you think were different?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Patrick Differ]

Because they were either not Ripper victims or the circumstances were different, Trevor.

Agree Frank. I dont believe any killer just starts mutilating women without thinking about it first. There is usually a starting point im guessing. Tabram looks like a probe to me. Whether a sailor already stabbed her in the heart or not and he came upon her is impossible to tell.

Nichols and Stride were interruptions. Nichols may have been an issue with cold feet. Hard to tell but the escalations were done, in my opinion, for more than just lust. This killer was also trying to prove something. If it was someone like Jacob Levy, for ecample, it would be that he was still a Master of his trade as a butcher. But just a guess.

[Doctored Whatsit]

I thought Eddowes was seen with her hand on the mans chest not in any distress? I suppose that the woman seen by Lawende , Levy, Harris might not have been Eddowes but then no one came forward. If some other woman were engaging around Mitre Square there is no recording of that. The Square would also still be canvassed by Police every 15 minutes.

There is another consideration and that would be recognition of the man they saw with the woman. Im not sure what reason the press chose to characterize Joseph Hyam Levy as a reluctant witness, stating they thought he new something and perhaps appeared aloof. The Press had become more agressive so it could have been accurate.

Why would Schwartz be a better witness? I doubt he tipped off the Police about the Jewish Butcher but someone did. Im curious how that happened. Lawende and Levy did not come forward as they had the knock on the door. Would they have?

Alot of gaps in this case. Keep turning over rocks.

An unidentified woman who could have been Eddowes, was seen with her hand on a man's chest, but if you don't have a statement that it was definitely Eddowes, then you don't have useful evidence to secure a conviction. Swanson called the failure to positively identify Eddowes a "serious drawback". It was also only near the crime scene, not at the crime scene. This is merely possible useful information, but not conviction material.

Schwartz reported a scene of some violence at the crime scene, involving an identified Stride, only minutes before the murder. Obviously a potentially stronger witness. He also never said on oath that he didn't think he would be able to recognise the man again.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I have found this from an old file I belive its quote from either an article or from one of her books

"The dealing in bodies and body parts involved a complex supply chain starting with undertakers, mortuary attendants, infirmary porters, and nurses who would all alert a body dealer of a death and then they would be paid by the body dealer for that information, or in the case of a mortuary attendant allowing access to a mortuary to simply remove body parts from a dead body, as body parts were more lucrative acquisitions than a whole body"

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I’m unsure where it’s from but I have no problem accepting that it might have come from Professor Hurren because, as we can see, it mentions only the dealing in bodies and body parts - which is what she mentions in her article. Whole bodies and amputated limbs.

Absolutely nothing about organ thieves entering mortuaries, opening up corpses and removing internal organs.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Now, how did I know you were going to reply with that answer? So who were the Ripper victims? And what circumstances do you think were different?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Yes, it was obvious that was what Frank was going to say because it’s clearly true.

Nichols - as Cross heard Paul arrive, the killer could easily have heard Cross arrive - interrupted.
Chapman - in a yard with no one passing by - organs removed.
Stride - you don’t think she was a victim, I favour that she wasn’t, most believe Diemschitz disturbed the killer - interrupted or not a victim
Eddowes - in Mitre Square with no one passing until Watkins - organs removed
Kelly - in her own room - heart removed


Not difficult to see the pattern is it?

[Geddy2112]

So I'll ask again. How many victims did the organ thieves steal organs from between 1880 and 1900?