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Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes
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To be fair and give Trevor a final chance to make meaningful responses to the individual points against his theory let’s sum up in individual, numbered, easy-to-respond-to points.
1. The basis for Trevor’s theory is that the killer didn’t have the time to remove organs in Mitre Square.
If Trevor says “it’s impossible that Doc could have got from A to B in an hour.” And I say “ what is the distance between A and B?” To which Trevor replies “I don’t know.” Then I ask “how quickly could Doc have travelled between A and B?” And Trevor responded “I don’t know.” How much value would we place in Trevor’s original claim that Doc couldn’t have done it? It’s none of course. So why does Trevor make the claim that the killer couldn’t have removed organs when we don’t know how long it would have taken him or how long he had available to him? Trevor has completely failed to address this point. And he hasn’t done it because the point is indisputable.
2. Trevor claims that the Doctor’s, Brown and Sequiera, couldn’t have examined the body to any great extent before the post mortem. And yet we know from the evidence that the body was removed to the mortuary at 3am and that Dr. Brown (and possibly Sequiera, although he isn’t mentioned) were still at the mortuary 2 hours later. What does Trevor think that they were doing in that 2 hours? Watching the slowest undressing of a corpse in history? Why else would they have gone to the mortuary in the first place if not to further examine the body under more favourable conditions than in Mitre Square? Do we know that they noticed the uterus? Of course not but the relevant point is that organ thieves couldn’t possibly have known that they hadn’t which would have made the decision to steal organs before the post mortem absolutely insane.
3. Trevor claims that the Doctors would have documented it if they had found the uterus missing in any examination before the post mortem. This is obvious nonsense because the doctors didn’t document the pre-PM examination at all. Why would they? Do we have any examples of a doctor doing this? I’m not aware of any. All documentation about the corpse would have been done at the post mortem, unless Trevor thinks that one of the Doctors said “shouldn’t we make some notes now in case some bits go missing?” Trevor can’t just invent criteria simply so that he could knock them down and claim that he’s made a point.
4. Trevor claims that Dr Phillips was only at the mortuary for the post mortem and not before. We know that this isn’t true. Phillips presence at the mortuary was requested by Dr Brown while Brown was still in Mitre Square with the body and Brown himself tells us why he had requested Phillips opinions. We know that PC Long handed the apron piece to Dr Phillips at Leman Street Station at some point in the early hours of the morning. And we know, from the Lloyd’s reporter that spoke to Dr Brown at 5.20 at the mortuary, that Brown was still awaiting the arrival of Dr Phillips. So unless Trevor believes that Brown was prepared to stand around at the mortuary twiddling his thumbs for another 9 hours until the PM then we can safely assume that Phillips arrived at the mortuary some time after 5.20. And why was he going to the mortuary? Because Brown had requested his presence to examine the injuries in comparison to a corpse that had had organs removed. And again, there is absolutely no way that organ thieves could have known that he hadn’t seen that the uterus was still in place.
5. Trevor makes the point that organ thieves existed. I have never doubted this but we have to note that, when asked if there would have been a market for these particular stolen organs, Brown said “none whatever.” It also has to be pointed out that the uterus was taken incomplete. Would there be a market for incomplete organs. How could an experienced organ thief, in mortuary conditions, still have failed to remove the organ cleanly and in its entirety which would surely have been his aim? Isn’t that more likely evidence that it had been taken incomplete in far less favourable conditions.
6. Finally Trevor makes the point that organ thieves would have had enough time to take organs. I’ve never really doubted this but we have to apply common sense. Organ thieves would never have removed organs from a body that was due for a post mortem (I should have no need to explain the very obvious reason why this is the case) So why would they change in this case (and in the case of Chapman for that matter?) It makes absolutely no sense because they had no need to change their method and take such an insane risk. If Phillips arrived at around 5.30 (it may have been later) and was there for an hour or so, then we have Doctors at the mortuary until around 6.30-7.00. This was two hours after sunrise; broad daylight. Can anyone seriously believe that out organ thieves would have been there, stealing organs from a corpse, when anyone, police officer, Doctor, non-corrupt official, nurse etc could have walked in on them? And this was after 3 doctors had examined the body and could very easily have spotted that the uterus was still in place. We can only stretch credibility so far. The idea isn’t worth further consideration.
The organs were provenly taken by the killer.
1. The basis for Trevor’s theory is that the killer didn’t have the time to remove organs in Mitre Square.
If Trevor says “it’s impossible that Doc could have got from A to B in an hour.” And I say “ what is the distance between A and B?” To which Trevor replies “I don’t know.” Then I ask “how quickly could Doc have travelled between A and B?” And Trevor responded “I don’t know.” How much value would we place in Trevor’s original claim that Doc couldn’t have done it? It’s none of course. So why does Trevor make the claim that the killer couldn’t have removed organs when we don’t know how long it would have taken him or how long he had available to him? Trevor has completely failed to address this point. And he hasn’t done it because the point is indisputable.
2. Trevor claims that the Doctor’s, Brown and Sequiera, couldn’t have examined the body to any great extent before the post mortem. And yet we know from the evidence that the body was removed to the mortuary at 3am and that Dr. Brown (and possibly Sequiera, although he isn’t mentioned) were still at the mortuary 2 hours later. What does Trevor think that they were doing in that 2 hours? Watching the slowest undressing of a corpse in history? Why else would they have gone to the mortuary in the first place if not to further examine the body under more favourable conditions than in Mitre Square? Do we know that they noticed the uterus? Of course not but the relevant point is that organ thieves couldn’t possibly have known that they hadn’t which would have made the decision to steal organs before the post mortem absolutely insane.
3. Trevor claims that the Doctors would have documented it if they had found the uterus missing in any examination before the post mortem. This is obvious nonsense because the doctors didn’t document the pre-PM examination at all. Why would they? Do we have any examples of a doctor doing this? I’m not aware of any. All documentation about the corpse would have been done at the post mortem, unless Trevor thinks that one of the Doctors said “shouldn’t we make some notes now in case some bits go missing?” Trevor can’t just invent criteria simply so that he could knock them down and claim that he’s made a point.
4. Trevor claims that Dr Phillips was only at the mortuary for the post mortem and not before. We know that this isn’t true. Phillips presence at the mortuary was requested by Dr Brown while Brown was still in Mitre Square with the body and Brown himself tells us why he had requested Phillips opinions. We know that PC Long handed the apron piece to Dr Phillips at Leman Street Station at some point in the early hours of the morning. And we know, from the Lloyd’s reporter that spoke to Dr Brown at 5.20 at the mortuary, that Brown was still awaiting the arrival of Dr Phillips. So unless Trevor believes that Brown was prepared to stand around at the mortuary twiddling his thumbs for another 9 hours until the PM then we can safely assume that Phillips arrived at the mortuary some time after 5.20. And why was he going to the mortuary? Because Brown had requested his presence to examine the injuries in comparison to a corpse that had had organs removed. And again, there is absolutely no way that organ thieves could have known that he hadn’t seen that the uterus was still in place.
5. Trevor makes the point that organ thieves existed. I have never doubted this but we have to note that, when asked if there would have been a market for these particular stolen organs, Brown said “none whatever.” It also has to be pointed out that the uterus was taken incomplete. Would there be a market for incomplete organs. How could an experienced organ thief, in mortuary conditions, still have failed to remove the organ cleanly and in its entirety which would surely have been his aim? Isn’t that more likely evidence that it had been taken incomplete in far less favourable conditions.
6. Finally Trevor makes the point that organ thieves would have had enough time to take organs. I’ve never really doubted this but we have to apply common sense. Organ thieves would never have removed organs from a body that was due for a post mortem (I should have no need to explain the very obvious reason why this is the case) So why would they change in this case (and in the case of Chapman for that matter?) It makes absolutely no sense because they had no need to change their method and take such an insane risk. If Phillips arrived at around 5.30 (it may have been later) and was there for an hour or so, then we have Doctors at the mortuary until around 6.30-7.00. This was two hours after sunrise; broad daylight. Can anyone seriously believe that out organ thieves would have been there, stealing organs from a corpse, when anyone, police officer, Doctor, non-corrupt official, nurse etc could have walked in on them? And this was after 3 doctors had examined the body and could very easily have spotted that the uterus was still in place. We can only stretch credibility so far. The idea isn’t worth further consideration.
The organs were provenly taken by the killer.
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