The kidney removal of Catherine Eddowes.

[DJA]

[GBinOz]

The answer may rest in areas of the case that we believe are true; that may indeed be false.

Well said RD. The voice of reason crying in the wilderness.

Cheers, George

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi Paul,

I'm not suggesting that Jack cared about damaging other organs, just that he seemed to be following methods and procedures adopted by medical students in the dissecting room. The mobilisation of the small intestine, dividing the root of the mesentery, removed the descending colon to get at Eddowes's left kidney, invaginating the sigmoid into the rectum and the skirting of the umbilicus to the right with the abdominal incision. Would these be procedures adopted by a slaughterman?

My understanding is that in 1888 abdominal surgery on live patients was very rare, and more in the domain of the dissecting room.

Cheers, George

This is the crux of the argument.

What kind of man had the ability and capability to carry out those wounds inflicted on each of the known victims, within a relatively small time frame, in near darkness, in virtual silence, and then escape the scene without being heard or seen?

When we combine all of those proven factors, it really is quite remarkable how it was achieved multiple times.

The answer may rest in areas of the case that we believe are true; that may indeed be false.

For example...multiple assailants, a different kill site to the deposition site, use of a cart to move and then place the body, someone who would not be stopped and questioned; a policeman, a vicar, a child, a woman etc...


There must be something that we are all missing that would go some way to explain how the Ripper managed to achieve what he did.

[GBinOz]

Hi George

You are assuming that the killer cared about not damaging other organs (and obviously haemostasis is not a concern). The most similar modern procedure would be a resuscitative hysterotomy aka perimortem c-section. These should be started at four minutes post arrest and baby delivered by five minutes, ie one minute to cut through abdomen and open uterus. I can imagine an experienced slaughterman easily being able to open the abdomen and find the uterus in about one to two minutes and then the kidney could be a lucky find by him.

Paul

Hi Paul,

I'm not suggesting that Jack cared about damaging other organs, just that he seemed to be following methods and procedures adopted by medical students in the dissecting room. The mobilisation of the small intestine, dividing the root of the mesentery, removed the descending colon to get at Eddowes's left kidney, invaginating the sigmoid into the rectum and the skirting of the umbilicus to the right with the abdominal incision. Would these be procedures adopted by a slaughterman?

My understanding is that in 1888 abdominal surgery on live patients was very rare, and more in the domain of the dissecting room.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Kosher butchers in Whitechapel who went to the Jewish Free School were educated in Religion and Science. The Kosher butcher also spent years to become licensed in becoming Kosher. The training in anatomy of related animals would have required how much transfer of knowledge exactly? How long was the killer with Chapman? How would you compare a Kosher Butcher ( someone who arguably had highly specialized skill with specialized blades ) to a surgeon who used smaller narrower blades as described by Dr Phillips ?
Just as there are different Surgeons with different skills, there were also different types of butchers with different skills.

Hi Patrick,

Most butchers empty the abdomen whilst the animal is hanging vertically so that gravity helps a great deal. Jewish Shochets often do it with the animal lying supine, but Jack however used a long blade pointed knife, possibly double edged (a Liston amputaion knife). Jewish butchers use a chalaf, which is single edged with a square end.


Chalaf




Liston knives

Cheers, George

[Patrick Differ]

Kosher butchers in Whitechapel who went to the Jewish Free School were educated in Religion and Science. The Kosher butcher also spent years to become licensed in becoming Kosher. The training in anatomy of related animals would have required how much transfer of knowledge exactly? How long was the killer with Chapman? How would you compare a Kosher Butcher ( someone who arguably had highly specialized skill with specialized blades ) to a surgeon who used smaller narrower blades as described by Dr Phillips ?
Just as there are different Surgeons with different skills, there were also different types of butchers with different skills.

[Trevor Marriott]

So we have Paul, with actual medical knowledge that none of us possesses, and you favour a butcher over him.

So the next time you make a point on detection should I go and ask the World Cluedo champion’s opinion?

When does a butcher learn about female anatomy and how to remove a uterus and a kidney from a murdered female in almost total darkness?

Wake up to reality !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Herlock Sholmes]

Well I have a statement from a master butcher who started his career in a slaughterhouse who would contest you post. In that statement he highlights the danger of working in the dark in a blood filled abdomen with a long bladed sharp knife he also highlights the problems he would encounter in trying to locate the organs in a human body and then trying to grip them to be able to remove them

I am sure that you are aware that modern-day surgeons wear surgical gloves so that they can grip organs more easily these were not around in victorian times.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

So we have Paul, with actual medical knowledge that none of us possesses, and you favour a butcher over him.

So the next time you make a point on detection should I go and ask the World Cluedo champion’s opinion?

[Patrick Differ]

There are several points Dr Phillips stated that correspond to both Chapman and Eddowes. The knife was very sharp, the abdomen was severely mutilated and the time to perform the murders.

A very sharp knife vs a dull knife is critical. The sharper the blade the less collateral damage to organs and cleaner cuts. Whoever the killer was he kept his blade very sharp in all cases. Was it part of his daily job? It was certainly a skill.

Phillips was shocked at the abdominal mutilation and in terms of timing he said something telling. He said looking at Chapman's wounds he himself did not think he could perform the removals in less than 15 minutes. Then he went on to say that if he were to do it per his profession as a surgeon, it would take him at least an hour.

In my mind it says that Phillips did not believe the killer was a professional surgeon. He also stated he did not believe a surgical kit had a blade that would perform the cutting.

If we look at the post mortem and timing the question arises whether the killer could perform the overall killing in approximately 10 minutes, Eddowes the worst case. Phillips again reveals his thought that it would take him about 15 minutes as a non-surgeon.

Taking a look at Eddowes-
1:31 am PC Watson, a 17 year veteran enters and leaves Mitre Square.
1:35 am Lawende,Levy and Harris see a man and woman at Church Passage
1:40 am PC Harvey enters and leaves Church Passage and walks toward Aldgate ( did not see Lawende, Levy, Harris?)
1:44 am PC Watkins enters Mitre Square and finds Eddowes.

Could this happen in 9 minutes? Let's assume further...

1:35 to 1:36. - Eddowes and JTR enter Mitre
1:37 to 1:38 - The killer strangles, lays Eddowes on the ground and cuts her throat. Note it takes about 10 seconds to strangle a human unconscious at 11 lbs of pressure. The cuts to the throat with a sharp blade an additional 10 seconds.
1:39 to 1:44 am or 5 minutes to slice open the abdomen, remove the intestines which he did on Chapman, remove the Uterus which he did on Chapman , and then remove the kidney.
1:44. As PC Watkins enters Mitre Square the killer leaves the way he came in through Church Passage as he heard PC Harvey enter the passage at 1:40 and head towards Aldgate.

Could the killer have done it this way? Phillips thought he himself, again not as a Surgeon, would have taken 15 minutes.

The killer in my estimation took what he learned from Chapman and repeated it with Eddowes. He knew his way around sharp blades and was able to shave time off of the Eddowes attack based on Chapman. Lesson learned.

What he did next was also incredible. Consider this killer almost got caught with both Stride and Eddowes within less than an hour of each other. Yet he escapes to lay low for another hour somewhere between Mitre and Goulston Street before leaving 2 clues at Goulston and disappears once again.

All the while all hell is breaking loose as PCs are scrambling, Investigators are going door to door and streets are being searched. Yet he simply vanishes. Or was he right there.

Maybrick said he took a room on Middlesex Street and Jacob Levy lived at #36. Between Mitre and Goulston Street.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi George

You are assuming that the killer cared about not damaging other organs (and obviously haemostasis is not a concern). The most similar modern procedure would be a resuscitative hysterotomy aka perimortem c-section. These should be started at four minutes post arrest and baby delivered by five minutes, ie one minute to cut through abdomen and open uterus. I can imagine an experienced slaughterman easily being able to open the abdomen and find the uterus in about one to two minutes and then the kidney could be a lucky find by him.

Paul

Well I have a statement from a master butcher who started his career in a slaughterhouse who would contest you post. In that statement he highlights the danger of working in the dark in a blood filled abdomen with a long bladed sharp knife he also highlights the problems he would encounter in trying to locate the organs in a human body and then trying to grip them to be able to remove them

I am sure that you are aware that modern-day surgeons wear surgical gloves so that they can grip organs more easily these were not around in victorian times.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[kjab3112]

Hi George

You are assuming that the killer cared about not damaging other organs (and obviously haemostasis is not a concern). The most similar modern procedure would be a resuscitative hysterotomy aka perimortem c-section. These should be started at four minutes post arrest and baby delivered by five minutes, ie one minute to cut through abdomen and open uterus. I can imagine an experienced slaughterman easily being able to open the abdomen and find the uterus in about one to two minutes and then the kidney could be a lucky find by him.

Paul

[GBinOz]

While I have no personal experience in this area, and I do try and keep my "guts" out of it, 2 minutes feels very very fast to me! Three I can think "ok, seems quick, but ok, I don't know", which is why I mentioned the 3 minutes.

Hi Jeff,

I have no personal medical experience either. Even if I attended an abdominal hysterectomy I would still be none the wiser as I would probably spend the time passed out on the floor.

However, my daughter has attended dozens of these operations and witnessed surgeons of the highest repute nick the small bladder even with the benefit of full surgical lighting and assistance. She is firmly of the opinion that the organ extractions on Eddowes couldn't be done in ten minutes with no damage to the small bladder.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

Or a combination of 1 and 3. Plus the experts might have ‘doubted’ but would they commit to saying tat it was absolutely impossible?

Hi Herlock,

The concluding statement was:

"It's not in the realms of possibility that someone could do it in the circumstances described".

The medical investigation of the Eddowes murder runs from the 19 minute mark to the 22 minute mark and uses a 3D body - a wealth of information in only 3 minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpQqMtVVkzY&t=965s&ab_channel=dickcopy

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

So am i right in thinking you now think Baxter was referring to organs when he question Dr Phillips ???. In not sure one could say Phillips was ''evading'' the question tho George ,just stating a fact he wasnt present .

Hi Fishy,

"If the two ''flaps of skin'' from the lower abdoman were lying next to the body, why did Dr Phillips reply they were Absent ?" He didn't, they were excised but present and externally visible - see the "body in situ" report

I was always talking about Baxter referring to organs - he wanted to know when the organ and body parts went missing. Phillips could have replied to Baxter's question by saying that they were present at the crime scene but he had no way of telling how they disappeared. He just said he wasn't present at the transit, avoiding the question as to if they were present at the crime scene, because he didn't know, because that was the function of the post mortem to examine the inner body.

Then the body, which was supposed to be guarded in the mortuary, was found in the yard by the nurses who then washed the body without appropriate authorisation.

Cheers, George

[FISHY1118]

To be fair, at the Chapman inquest Baxter did ask Phillips if the organs could have been lost in transit, and Phillips evaded the question by replying that he wasn't present during the transit. At the Eddowes inquest there were questions as to whether the missing organs were of any commercial or professional value which might be interpreted as sub text for questioning when the organs went missing.

I'm starting to wonder why we dwell on a topic with so many uncertainties.

Cheers, George

So am i right in thinking you now think Baxter was referring to organs when he question Dr Phillips ???. In not sure one could say Phillips was ''evading'' the question tho George ,just stating a fact he wasnt present .