The kidney removal of Catherine Eddowes.

[Patrick Differ]

I would say that all else being equal, a suspect who had experience or training with cutting either human or animal bodies would tend to be a stronger suspect than someone that we don't know of having that experience or training. However, since it is reasonable to believe that a person didn't have to have had that experience or training to do what the Ripper did, and because a person could have that without us knowing it, I'm opposed to eliminating a suspect from consideration just because we don't know of him having that kind of training or experience.

Hi Lewis- i understand your point of view. I try to look at it logically if at all possible. The fact that these murders mimic a stepwise method of a certain profession and the Doctors thought this profession could pull this off gives me pause. Then Sagar, who was studying to be a Doctor himself, had a butcher under surveillance who he was convinced was the killer. Sagar, the liason from City to Metro on the Ripper murders would have had a daily picture. Who tipped them off is the question. My guess is someone who knew him.

I ask myself whether anyone could have done this taking the evidence provided by the Doctors and the bodies combined with location out of the equation. To your point. Also keeping in mind that in metro the Police beat took 30 minutes and in London 15 minutes. Since the killer achieved these kills within these constraints, then what does it say?

Stabbing was frequent in the East End. Strangling to a lesser degree but garroting was well known. I think anyone could have throttled these women. Throat cutting after laying the woman down was not seen nor does it show up in Old Bailey Court records for several years before and after these murders. It just did not happen. I consider this unique. However it was a daily occurence in the Butcher trade.

Does that prove anything? Maybe not but it does show a known fact. That Butchers cut animal throats. With Kosher Butchers it was a Religious Act. The Jewish Butchers on Butchers Row where Kosher and in fact the Board Members. They would grant licenses so Sagars story narrows this field of type of Butcher. The Jewish Butcher Theory should be called the Jewish Kosher Butcher Theory.

For sake of argument lets say a man with just knife skills throttled these women, layed them on the ground and then cut their throats. We he have understood bleeding out would minimize blood in the abdomen? Here again Doctors testified that the killer by bleeding out would have little blood on themselves. Would you call that dumb luck ? Compared to Butchers who already knew that bleeding out made the abdomen less bloody and organs more visible.

Could anyone after taking those first two steps then Rip open the abdomen and do what was done in a minimum amount of time and at least with some awareness of the Police beat timing? Again would luck be involved. The man ripping out the organs, slashing away in a silent controlled rage? I guess thats possible but the Doctors did not think that to be the case. The comparison they used was their own skill set. That to me is directed more at the mutilation in the abdomen then anything else.

Serial killers are known to have transitioned from killing animals to humans. Butchers in this case is a no brainer. There is a lean by Doctors and some police to this profession in this case for a reason. But as you point out Lewis, the killer could have been anyone,,but I would add that they likely transitioned from animal. Otherwise i dont think they could have repeated the mutilations repetitively as they did. They cut before.

Peace

[Lewis C]

Lewis and RD- it is possible that the London and Metro police had no idea who any of these supposed Jewish suspects were and what their names actually were. I think you have to keep in mind that these predominantly Jewish areas that Charles Booth illustrates were known to be close knit. Robert Sagar talks about the Police having to use disguises just to get Jewish people to talk on Butchers Row. In this case they suspected a Jewish Butcher, not a tailor or a hairdresser or a doctor or medical student.

It is possible that Swanson, Anderson, etc. Wouldnt know a Kosminski, Cohen, or Kaminski from a Levy or Barnett. They likely knew local business owners on some level but a Constable on a beat was walking and not stopping to talk. Their job was regimented.

At some point I think you have to consider the testimony of the Doctors, post mortem and the bodies of the victims as the evidence. Along with the Eddowes Apron and possibly Graffito at Goulston Street. I think supposed Diaries and anything else are at best not as relevant.

To answer your point Lewis I personally believe the Killers signature reveals a man that was experienced with a sharp knife and experienced with cutting either human or animal bodies. Not Kosminski. The kill windows should tell us that a novice- someone who never cut an animal or human- would not have that experience to achieve these kills in this manner. The kills mirror what a butcher might do, Stun- Cut throat and gut. It would be a low probability for any other profession to perform the repitition within the kill window. There was a reason the Doctors mentioned Butcher, why Sagar had one under surveillance, and the signature of this killer, in my mind, reveals his profession.

If these women were throttled first then whoever stunned these women by strangling had to be relatively strong with upper body strength. That could fit many. However cutting the throat is the 2nd step in the butchers profession. Gutting is the next and skinning is the last. Was there any indication of skinning? Yes on Mary Kelly. However this killer learned that unlike and animals skin which is loose , human skin is tight and skinning almost impossible.

i think the bodies tell a story. I think the Eddowes aftermath and apron show a man living between Mitre Square and Goulston. A man who disappears and reappears and disappears again right under the Police noses within a 2 hour window. Middlesex Street??

I would say that all else being equal, a suspect who had experience or training with cutting either human or animal bodies would tend to be a stronger suspect than someone that we don't know of having that experience or training. However, since it is reasonable to believe that a person didn't have to have had that experience or training to do what the Ripper did, and because a person could have that without us knowing it, I'm opposed to eliminating a suspect from consideration just because we don't know of him having that kind of training or experience.

[Lewis C]

Could an openly mentally unstable man who drank from the gutter, have had the charm to convince Eddowes he wasn't the Ripper?
And could a lunatic have had the mental acuity, awareness and stability, to carry out a relatively advanced procedure to remove a kidney in the dark in a matter of a few minutes, and then leave the scene without being seen?


Unlikely.

Aaron Kosminski probably wouldn't have had what it took to be the killer after he had been confined to a lunatic asylum, which is when we have most of our info about what he was like. However, it's possible that at the time of the murders, he wasn't as far gone as he was later on.

[Patrick Differ]

Macnaghten first gives us the name "Kosminski" in a list of 3 men who he submitted to counter the suggestion that the American Cutbush was the Ripper.

Over 15 years later, Anderson then gives us a scenario whereby he implies that the Ripper was known all along; yet chooses not to name him.

Subsequently, Swanson then appears to clarify Anderson's claim, by once again mentioning the name "Kosminski."

Therefore; on the face of it, it would appear that Swanson is verifying Macnaghten's original mention of Kosminski.

But the question is; why does Macnaghten make no mention of anything later stated by Anderson?

It's clear that Macnaghten has no idea about anything that Anderson claims occurred regarding Kosminski.

Macnaghten also refers to Kosminski in the past context.

In fact, Macnaghten and Swanson both refer to Kosminski as though he's already dead.
Anderson does the same, except he doesn't name the suspect.

Aaron Kosminski was still alive when all 3 men made their respective written contributions.


There are scores of variations of the name "Kosminski"


It's clear that something just doesn't add up.

Accepting Aaron Kosminski as the "suspect" is simply misleading and wrong.



But what has any of this got to do with Eddowes and her Kidney?


Well, absolutely nothing really.




So.... let's get back on the right track...

Could an openly mentally unstable man who drank from the gutter, have had the charm to convince Eddowes he wasn't the Ripper?
And could a lunatic have had the mental acuity, awareness and stability, to carry out a relatively advanced procedure to remove a kidney in the dark in a matter of a few minutes, and then leave the scene without being seen?


Unlikely.

Lewis and RD- it is possible that the London and Metro police had no idea who any of these supposed Jewish suspects were and what their names actually were. I think you have to keep in mind that these predominantly Jewish areas that Charles Booth illustrates were known to be close knit. Robert Sagar talks about the Police having to use disguises just to get Jewish people to talk on Butchers Row. In this case they suspected a Jewish Butcher, not a tailor or a hairdresser or a doctor or medical student.

It is possible that Swanson, Anderson, etc. Wouldnt know a Kosminski, Cohen, or Kaminski from a Levy or Barnett. They likely knew local business owners on some level but a Constable on a beat was walking and not stopping to talk. Their job was regimented.

At some point I think you have to consider the testimony of the Doctors, post mortem and the bodies of the victims as the evidence. Along with the Eddowes Apron and possibly Graffito at Goulston Street. I think supposed Diaries and anything else are at best not as relevant.

To answer your point Lewis I personally believe the Killers signature reveals a man that was experienced with a sharp knife and experienced with cutting either human or animal bodies. Not Kosminski. The kill windows should tell us that a novice- someone who never cut an animal or human- would not have that experience to achieve these kills in this manner. The kills mirror what a butcher might do, Stun- Cut throat and gut. It would be a low probability for any other profession to perform the repitition within the kill window. There was a reason the Doctors mentioned Butcher, why Sagar had one under surveillance, and the signature of this killer, in my mind, reveals his profession.

If these women were throttled first then whoever stunned these women by strangling had to be relatively strong with upper body strength. That could fit many. However cutting the throat is the 2nd step in the butchers profession. Gutting is the next and skinning is the last. Was there any indication of skinning? Yes on Mary Kelly. However this killer learned that unlike and animals skin which is loose , human skin is tight and skinning almost impossible.

i think the bodies tell a story. I think the Eddowes aftermath and apron show a man living between Mitre Square and Goulston. A man who disappears and reappears and disappears again right under the Police noses within a 2 hour window. Middlesex Street??

[The Rookie Detective]

But my point was, can you prove that Aaron Kosminski (for example) didn't have skill/experience with a knife? And that's assuming that when you said Kosmknski, you meant Aaron. If you meant whomever Swanson and Macnaughten were referring to when they said "Kosminski", we definitely can't prove that that person wasn't skilled with a knife, since we don't know who that person was.

Macnaghten first gives us the name "Kosminski" in a list of 3 men who he submitted to counter the suggestion that the American Cutbush was the Ripper.

Over 15 years later, Anderson then gives us a scenario whereby he implies that the Ripper was known all along; yet chooses not to name him.

Subsequently, Swanson then appears to clarify Anderson's claim, by once again mentioning the name "Kosminski."

Therefore; on the face of it, it would appear that Swanson is verifying Macnaghten's original mention of Kosminski.

But the question is; why does Macnaghten make no mention of anything later stated by Anderson?

It's clear that Macnaghten has no idea about anything that Anderson claims occurred regarding Kosminski.

Macnaghten also refers to Kosminski in the past context.

In fact, Macnaghten and Swanson both refer to Kosminski as though he's already dead.
Anderson does the same, except he doesn't name the suspect.

Aaron Kosminski was still alive when all 3 men made their respective written contributions.


There are scores of variations of the name "Kosminski"


It's clear that something just doesn't add up.

Accepting Aaron Kosminski as the "suspect" is simply misleading and wrong.



But what has any of this got to do with Eddowes and her Kidney?


Well, absolutely nothing really.




So.... let's get back on the right track...

Could an openly mentally unstable man who drank from the gutter, have had the charm to convince Eddowes he wasn't the Ripper?
And could a lunatic have had the mental acuity, awareness and stability, to carry out a relatively advanced procedure to remove a kidney in the dark in a matter of a few minutes, and then leave the scene without being seen?


Unlikely.

[Lewis C]

Excellent post Patrick


It's specifically what the killer did to his victims post-mortem that sets him apart from a generic killer taking a life with a knife.

The most difficult and skillful part of the entire murder sequence for the killer, was AFTER the victim was already dead.

He dispatched his victims suddenly, quickly, quietly and with extreme speed and focus.

It would have taken less than 30 seconds to kill, but the vast majority of time spent by the killer with his victim involved what he did to them after they were deceased.

The ripper wasn't just a killer, he was specifically a post-mortem mutilator.

That's the Ripper's signature right there.

And that particular key signature required a combination of the following...

Skill with a knife
Experience using a knife
Skill in cutting things up
Experience with cutting things up
Basic anatomical knowledge


And that's the point; the Ripper needed to have been someone who fits that specific criteria.

But my point was, can you prove that Aaron Kosminski (for example) didn't have skill/experience with a knife? And that's assuming that when you said Kosmknski, you meant Aaron. If you meant whomever Swanson and Macnaughten were referring to when they said "Kosminski", we definitely can't prove that that person wasn't skilled with a knife, since we don't know who that person was.

[The Rookie Detective]

Folks- i think this killer had some level of skill because of the amount of time he had to perform what is clearly a stepwise method. Silence- cut throat and bleed out and then mutilate. Location in metro was within a 30 minute police beat cycle and London City 15 minutes. Killing in metro ( all but Eddowes) was in theory more time to kill.

Could the killer be anyone when you consider the time and motion analysis of these kills? To silence and cut throats would take about 30 seconds. Again this was controlled rage in silence so what happened next? According to the attending Doctors they considered some anatomical knowledge to extract organs. So then the question becomes lets assume anyone could have throttled these women and cut their throats after they got them laying on the ground. I can buy that.

But thats where I personally think it ends. If Eddowes was killed and mutilated in about 5 minutes and there was an escalation from Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes - that is a pattern. Would anyone know how to escalate as that was an apparent goal. Could anyone with a sharp knife know how to remove intestines, uterus and kidney or simply Rip them out?
Having never had experience with a cadaver or animal and seiing it for the first time? I think the escalation tells a story.

This killer knew how to render the victim unconscious and also knew that cutting the throats and bleeding out led to less blood in the abdomen. Medical and butcher people would certainly know that. The average Joe likely would not.

The cuts were also described as clean. Do all these things point to a potential profession. In my mind I believe it points to a local who knew he had x amount of time to perform the murder, and used his own skill to perform the mutilations. By the time he got to Eddowes he knew how fast he could get to the kidney because he already did the previous steps.

I think anyone could have silenced and cut the throats.
I dont think that just anyone could perform an Eddowes in 5 minutes by just Ripping. No matter what Cornwell says.⁸

Excellent post Patrick


It's specifically what the killer did to his victims post-mortem that sets him apart from a generic killer taking a life with a knife.

The most difficult and skillful part of the entire murder sequence for the killer, was AFTER the victim was already dead.

He dispatched his victims suddenly, quickly, quietly and with extreme speed and focus.

It would have taken less than 30 seconds to kill, but the vast majority of time spent by the killer with his victim involved what he did to them after they were deceased.

The ripper wasn't just a killer, he was specifically a post-mortem mutilator.

That's the Ripper's signature right there.

And that particular key signature required a combination of the following...

Skill with a knife
Experience using a knife
Skill in cutting things up
Experience with cutting things up
Basic anatomical knowledge


And that's the point; the Ripper needed to have been someone who fits that specific criteria.

[Patrick Differ]

Hi RD,

Does that list really eliminate anyone? Is there any suspect that we know wasn't skilled with a large sharp knife? A person could have such skill even if he didn't have an occupation or formal training related to that skill.

I would eliminate Maybrick anyway, and consider Lechmere to be among the weakest suspects that I wouldn't eliminate. Kosminski isn't my favorite, but I think he's viable.

Folks- i think this killer had some level of skill because of the amount of time he had to perform what is clearly a stepwise method. Silence- cut throat and bleed out and then mutilate. Location in metro was within a 30 minute police beat cycle and London City 15 minutes. Killing in metro ( all but Eddowes) was in theory more time to kill.

Could the killer be anyone when you consider the time and motion analysis of these kills? To silence and cut throats would take about 30 seconds. Again this was controlled rage in silence so what happened next? According to the attending Doctors they considered some anatomical knowledge to extract organs. So then the question becomes lets assume anyone could have throttled these women and cut their throats after they got them laying on the ground. I can buy that.

But thats where I personally think it ends. If Eddowes was killed and mutilated in about 5 minutes and there was an escalation from Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes - that is a pattern. Would anyone know how to escalate as that was an apparent goal. Could anyone with a sharp knife know how to remove intestines, uterus and kidney or simply Rip them out?
Having never had experience with a cadaver or animal and seiing it for the first time? I think the escalation tells a story.

This killer knew how to render the victim unconscious and also knew that cutting the throats and bleeding out led to less blood in the abdomen. Medical and butcher people would certainly know that. The average Joe likely would not.

The cuts were also described as clean. Do all these things point to a potential profession. In my mind I believe it points to a local who knew he had x amount of time to perform the murder, and used his own skill to perform the mutilations. By the time he got to Eddowes he knew how fast he could get to the kidney because he already did the previous steps.

I think anyone could have silenced and cut the throats.
I dont think that just anyone could perform an Eddowes in 5 minutes by just Ripping. No matter what Cornwell says.⁸

[Lewis C]

Surgeon
Doctor
Medical/Surgical Student
Slaughterer
Butcher
Coroner
Convicted murderer
Surgical Skill
Anatomical knowledge
Skilled with a large sharp knife.



Any suspect or person of interest who doesn't fit into one of the above, was not the Ripper.


That's Lechmere, Maybrick and Kosminski gone then.


It doesn't matter why the killer took a Kidney that's important, it's HOW the killer able to do what he literally did, in relative darkness and within a very limited time frame.

How?!

Hi RD,

Does that list really eliminate anyone? Is there any suspect that we know wasn't skilled with a large sharp knife? A person could have such skill even if he didn't have an occupation or formal training related to that skill.

I would eliminate Maybrick anyway, and consider Lechmere to be among the weakest suspects that I wouldn't eliminate. Kosminski isn't my favorite, but I think he's viable.

[Geddy2112]

It doesn't matter why the killer took a Kidney that's important, it's HOW the killer able to do what he literally did, in relative darkness and within a very limited time frame.

Do you think he specifically targeted the kidney or did he just take 'something.' Just odd to think if indeed, as per Trevor there were organ thieves at work why did they not take both kidneys or more organs to sell?

[The Rookie Detective]

Surgeon
Doctor
Medical/Surgical Student
Slaughterer
Butcher
Coroner
Convicted murderer
Surgical Skill
Anatomical knowledge
Skilled with a large sharp knife.



Any suspect or person of interest who doesn't fit into one of the above, was not the Ripper.


That's Lechmere, Maybrick and Kosminski gone then.


It doesn't matter why the killer took a Kidney that's important, it's HOW the killer able to do what he literally did, in relative darkness and within a very limited time frame.

How?!

[John Wheat]

I won’t mention names but there are two posters on here who love asking questions and making statements but they just will not answer and straight question.

Don't forget those on the Maybrick threads.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Only two?

[Fiver]

I won’t mention names but there are two posters on here who love asking questions and making statements but they just will not answer and straight question.

Only two?

[FrankO]

This was brought up on a previous thread some time ago, and I suggested that the probable reason for getting Dr Phillips to study the sieved remains of the fire would be for evidence of a burnt heart. I couldn't think of any other reason to involve a police surgeon.

I missed it on the other thread then, DW, but I was thinking exactly the same thing as you regarding the motive behind the sieving of the remains of the fire by those medical men.

Perhaps someone should open a thread on Kelly's heart - we are doing it to death on this thread!

Although, of course, it's quite unbelievable why we are or need to be doing it to death, isn't it?