The kidney removal of Catherine Eddowes.

[GBinOz]

Dr Phillips did not think it was a Surgeons knife and would certainly know of a Liston knife. He leaned more to a slaughtering knife well ground ( butchers used stones to sharpen knives hence the term well ground down). Why did Phillips make this observation with the knowledge he had? Because he examined the body and its wounds?

[Coroner] Would it have been such an instrument as a medical man uses for post-mortem examinations? - The ordinary post-mortem case perhaps does not contain such a weapon.
[Coroner] Would any instrument that slaughterers employ have caused the injuries? - Yes; well ground down.

The Liston knife is not present in an "ordinary post-mortem case". I think that was the point he was making. I also think that he was suggesting that a slaughter's knife would have been possible only if it was ground down.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

Never have truer words been spoken.

But wait.....wouldn't that exclude a harmless idiot with a perchant for gutter dining, or a busy barrister and part time cricket tragic, or a drunken buffoon clutching his little pen knife??

Pay no attention to me my friend. It's 2 in the morning and the perverse demons have just arrived.

I’m not really disagreeing with you George but I’d just say that there are unknowns and differences of opinion which make it difficult to achieve any level confidence. We’ve heard ‘great skill’ ‘no skill’ ‘butchers knowledge’ ‘anatomical knowledge’ ‘skilled with a knife’ ‘not particularly skilled.’ Those aren’t direct quotes by the way but just my attempt to illustrate the divergence of opinion that have been put forward since October 1888. Then we have the range of times available to the killer. Then we might ‘suggest’ that if ‘anatomical knowledge’ was required then can we be sure that Bury hadn’t acquired it somehow? Couldn’t Druitt easily have gained such knowledge being the sun of a surgeon in a house full of books? (Jon Hainsworth has even suggested the possibility of Druitt doing a year of medical training as there is a ‘missing year’ in his early biog and it can’t be impossible that his father might have pushed him into following him in the medical profession - absolute speculation of course George)

Unknowns everywhere George. The odds probably favour an as yet unnamed killer. Unless….

[Patrick Differ]

I agree with your statement here Sir Herlock...after 135 years with no answer its easy to go in many directions when the simplest explanation is probably the most likely.
The knife is one issue but both Surgeons and Butchers had access to a myriad of knives they knew how to use and would have kept very sharp.
The knife sharpness is one key here because a dull knife would have caused much collateral damage. Dr Phillips did not think it was a Surgeons knife and would certainly know of a Liston knife. He leaned more to a slaughtering knife well ground ( butchers used stones to sharpen knives hence the term well ground down). Why did Phillips make this observation with the knowledge he had? Because he examined the body and its wounds?

The second question to answer would be the degree of anatomical knowledge required to perform the abdominal mutilations and removal of organs.
The Doctors were again split on this question with no consensus. Although on average they thought some degree of anatomical knowledge was required. There are more options here as Surgeons, medical students, mortuary assistants and Butchers dealt with anatomical structures. Note here that some animals have similar anatomy to humans including the structures of the womb, intestines and kidney.

Whoever this killer was they hid their insanity as they certainly turned on the charm to these streetwise women and within seconds of getting them alone...strangled, played them down, cut their throats and then kneeled by their side and performed the mutilations. And then disappeared.

For me personally the other question would be location. A specific area speaks to the classic serial killer profile that they lived in Whitechapel. if they were 30 years old and lived there all their lives then it might be the simplest explanation of why and how the killer never got caught. He knew " every" hiding place.

Was Jack the Ripper a local suffering from syphilis that caused his murder switch to turn on at will? It appears so.
DId Jack the Ripper know how to use and very sharp knife that he kept sharp? Without any disagreement.
Did JTR have anatomical skill? No consensus on how much by those Doctors who examined the bodies in real time.
Was this killer local? It fits the serial killer profile.

Does this narrow the field of potential killers? I think it does.

Did we beat this thread to death? Most assuredly. Well done to ALL !!!

[GBinOz]

I think that we are in danger of assuming almost superhuman powers when we should look to a more commonplace explanation. That whatever skill was required, the killer had it and whatever time was required, the killer had it.

So for me it’s fairly simple - did the killer have the necessary knowledge, skill and time to kill and remove those organs. Absolutely, because that’s what happened.

Never have truer words been spoken.

But wait.....wouldn't that exclude a harmless idiot with a perchant for gutter dining, or a busy barrister and part time cricket tragic, or a drunken buffoon clutching his little pen knife??

Pay no attention to me my friend. It's 2 in the morning and the perverse demons have just arrived.

[Herlock Sholmes]

There must be something that we are all missing that would go some way to explain how the Ripper managed to achieve what he did.

I think that we are in danger of assuming almost superhuman powers when we should look to a more commonplace explanation. That whatever skill was required, the killer had it and whatever time was required, the killer had it.

So for me it’s fairly simple - did the killer have the necessary knowledge, skill and time to kill and remove those organs. Absolutely, because that’s what happened. The alternatives don’t pass muster. Would an organ thief have stolen body parts from an already open abdomen which had already been scrutinised by at least 2 but possibly more Doctors in the mortuary, between the approximate hours of 5am to 2pm from a purpose built mortuary, from the most high profile corpse ever, during daylight/working hours, when all that they had to do would have been what they would have done in every single theft - waited until after the PM. The answer has to be a resounding, confident no. Not a chance.

Doctors at the time were fully aware of the phenomena of organ theft and yet not one of them at any time expressed even the slightest doubt that the killer had taken these organs. I agree with Jeff in that it’s almost certain that Dr. Phillips would have noted the absence of the uterus when he examined the corpse in the mortuary because that was the reason that Bond requested his presence. To make a comparison with what was done to Chapman and what was the most unusual thing that occurred to Chapman? Her uterus was removed.

[Herlock Sholmes]

When does a butcher learn about female anatomy and how to remove a uterus and a kidney from a murdered female in almost total darkness?

Wake up to reality !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Then perhaps you could remind us who it was that posted this?

Well I have a statement from a master butcher who started his career in a slaughterhouse who would contest you post. In that statement he highlights the danger of working in the dark in a blood filled abdomen with a long bladed sharp knife he also highlights the problems he would encounter in trying to locate the organs in a human body and then trying to grip them to be able to remove them

So…….”When does a butcher learn about female anatomy and how to remove a uterus and a kidney from a murdered female in almost total darkness?”

[DJA]

[GBinOz]

The answer may rest in areas of the case that we believe are true; that may indeed be false.

Well said RD. The voice of reason crying in the wilderness.

Cheers, George

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi Paul,

I'm not suggesting that Jack cared about damaging other organs, just that he seemed to be following methods and procedures adopted by medical students in the dissecting room. The mobilisation of the small intestine, dividing the root of the mesentery, removed the descending colon to get at Eddowes's left kidney, invaginating the sigmoid into the rectum and the skirting of the umbilicus to the right with the abdominal incision. Would these be procedures adopted by a slaughterman?

My understanding is that in 1888 abdominal surgery on live patients was very rare, and more in the domain of the dissecting room.

Cheers, George

This is the crux of the argument.

What kind of man had the ability and capability to carry out those wounds inflicted on each of the known victims, within a relatively small time frame, in near darkness, in virtual silence, and then escape the scene without being heard or seen?

When we combine all of those proven factors, it really is quite remarkable how it was achieved multiple times.

The answer may rest in areas of the case that we believe are true; that may indeed be false.

For example...multiple assailants, a different kill site to the deposition site, use of a cart to move and then place the body, someone who would not be stopped and questioned; a policeman, a vicar, a child, a woman etc...


There must be something that we are all missing that would go some way to explain how the Ripper managed to achieve what he did.

[GBinOz]

Hi George

You are assuming that the killer cared about not damaging other organs (and obviously haemostasis is not a concern). The most similar modern procedure would be a resuscitative hysterotomy aka perimortem c-section. These should be started at four minutes post arrest and baby delivered by five minutes, ie one minute to cut through abdomen and open uterus. I can imagine an experienced slaughterman easily being able to open the abdomen and find the uterus in about one to two minutes and then the kidney could be a lucky find by him.

Paul

Hi Paul,

I'm not suggesting that Jack cared about damaging other organs, just that he seemed to be following methods and procedures adopted by medical students in the dissecting room. The mobilisation of the small intestine, dividing the root of the mesentery, removed the descending colon to get at Eddowes's left kidney, invaginating the sigmoid into the rectum and the skirting of the umbilicus to the right with the abdominal incision. Would these be procedures adopted by a slaughterman?

My understanding is that in 1888 abdominal surgery on live patients was very rare, and more in the domain of the dissecting room.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Kosher butchers in Whitechapel who went to the Jewish Free School were educated in Religion and Science. The Kosher butcher also spent years to become licensed in becoming Kosher. The training in anatomy of related animals would have required how much transfer of knowledge exactly? How long was the killer with Chapman? How would you compare a Kosher Butcher ( someone who arguably had highly specialized skill with specialized blades ) to a surgeon who used smaller narrower blades as described by Dr Phillips ?
Just as there are different Surgeons with different skills, there were also different types of butchers with different skills.

Hi Patrick,

Most butchers empty the abdomen whilst the animal is hanging vertically so that gravity helps a great deal. Jewish Shochets often do it with the animal lying supine, but Jack however used a long blade pointed knife, possibly double edged (a Liston amputaion knife). Jewish butchers use a chalaf, which is single edged with a square end.


Chalaf




Liston knives

Cheers, George

[Patrick Differ]

Kosher butchers in Whitechapel who went to the Jewish Free School were educated in Religion and Science. The Kosher butcher also spent years to become licensed in becoming Kosher. The training in anatomy of related animals would have required how much transfer of knowledge exactly? How long was the killer with Chapman? How would you compare a Kosher Butcher ( someone who arguably had highly specialized skill with specialized blades ) to a surgeon who used smaller narrower blades as described by Dr Phillips ?
Just as there are different Surgeons with different skills, there were also different types of butchers with different skills.

[Trevor Marriott]

So we have Paul, with actual medical knowledge that none of us possesses, and you favour a butcher over him.

So the next time you make a point on detection should I go and ask the World Cluedo champion’s opinion?

When does a butcher learn about female anatomy and how to remove a uterus and a kidney from a murdered female in almost total darkness?

Wake up to reality !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Herlock Sholmes]

Well I have a statement from a master butcher who started his career in a slaughterhouse who would contest you post. In that statement he highlights the danger of working in the dark in a blood filled abdomen with a long bladed sharp knife he also highlights the problems he would encounter in trying to locate the organs in a human body and then trying to grip them to be able to remove them

I am sure that you are aware that modern-day surgeons wear surgical gloves so that they can grip organs more easily these were not around in victorian times.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

So we have Paul, with actual medical knowledge that none of us possesses, and you favour a butcher over him.

So the next time you make a point on detection should I go and ask the World Cluedo champion’s opinion?

[Patrick Differ]

There are several points Dr Phillips stated that correspond to both Chapman and Eddowes. The knife was very sharp, the abdomen was severely mutilated and the time to perform the murders.

A very sharp knife vs a dull knife is critical. The sharper the blade the less collateral damage to organs and cleaner cuts. Whoever the killer was he kept his blade very sharp in all cases. Was it part of his daily job? It was certainly a skill.

Phillips was shocked at the abdominal mutilation and in terms of timing he said something telling. He said looking at Chapman's wounds he himself did not think he could perform the removals in less than 15 minutes. Then he went on to say that if he were to do it per his profession as a surgeon, it would take him at least an hour.

In my mind it says that Phillips did not believe the killer was a professional surgeon. He also stated he did not believe a surgical kit had a blade that would perform the cutting.

If we look at the post mortem and timing the question arises whether the killer could perform the overall killing in approximately 10 minutes, Eddowes the worst case. Phillips again reveals his thought that it would take him about 15 minutes as a non-surgeon.

Taking a look at Eddowes-
1:31 am PC Watson, a 17 year veteran enters and leaves Mitre Square.
1:35 am Lawende,Levy and Harris see a man and woman at Church Passage
1:40 am PC Harvey enters and leaves Church Passage and walks toward Aldgate ( did not see Lawende, Levy, Harris?)
1:44 am PC Watkins enters Mitre Square and finds Eddowes.

Could this happen in 9 minutes? Let's assume further...

1:35 to 1:36. - Eddowes and JTR enter Mitre
1:37 to 1:38 - The killer strangles, lays Eddowes on the ground and cuts her throat. Note it takes about 10 seconds to strangle a human unconscious at 11 lbs of pressure. The cuts to the throat with a sharp blade an additional 10 seconds.
1:39 to 1:44 am or 5 minutes to slice open the abdomen, remove the intestines which he did on Chapman, remove the Uterus which he did on Chapman , and then remove the kidney.
1:44. As PC Watkins enters Mitre Square the killer leaves the way he came in through Church Passage as he heard PC Harvey enter the passage at 1:40 and head towards Aldgate.

Could the killer have done it this way? Phillips thought he himself, again not as a Surgeon, would have taken 15 minutes.

The killer in my estimation took what he learned from Chapman and repeated it with Eddowes. He knew his way around sharp blades and was able to shave time off of the Eddowes attack based on Chapman. Lesson learned.

What he did next was also incredible. Consider this killer almost got caught with both Stride and Eddowes within less than an hour of each other. Yet he escapes to lay low for another hour somewhere between Mitre and Goulston Street before leaving 2 clues at Goulston and disappears once again.

All the while all hell is breaking loose as PCs are scrambling, Investigators are going door to door and streets are being searched. Yet he simply vanishes. Or was he right there.

Maybrick said he took a room on Middlesex Street and Jacob Levy lived at #36. Between Mitre and Goulston Street.