Mortuary photographs and sketches

[Nic1950]

Hi all,

Does anyone have any ideas why there weren't any further mortuary photographs of the first few victims, even sketches. It seems that Eddowes had significantly more of these taken, more than Kelly. Was it because of the mutilations or was it the fact that they knew they were dealing with a serial killer.?
Thanks
Nic

[Monty]

It was the fact two Police forces were involved.

Photographs were intially taken for identification purposes, however the City seemed to be a lot more progressive in their use of the camera.

Monty

[Nic1950]

Hi
The only victim with detailed sketches and photographs is Eddowes, even if they didn't really use the camera much with previous victims, I'm just curious why there weren't any sketches or illustrations. Even photographs of Kelly are limited, how many murders with those type of mutilations would there have been, I would have thought the murders were quite unique and deserved a bit more detail.
There could have been, how can we be sure?
Thanks
Nic

[C. F. Leon]

We're probably seeing a combination of differences between the two jursedictions (City & Metro) and a learning curve- better documentation as events progressed.

[Barnaby]

In my opinion, sketching the Kelly mutilations would have been difficult.

Today with the help of computer enhanced photography and software we just may have better pictures than the contemporary police did.

[Phil Carter]

It was the fact two Police forces were involved.

Photographs were intially taken for identification purposes, however the City seemed to be a lot more progressive in their use of the camera.

Monty

Hello Monty,

Fair comment... I would ask you a couple of things though if I may?

Since the murder of Stride and the murder of Eddowes happened so near each other (time-wise)..were there two different photographers taking pics of Stride and Eddowes?..in which case who were these two men?


Phil

[Monty]

Hello Monty,

Fair comment... I would ask you a couple of things though if I may?

Since the murder of Stride and the murder of Eddowes happened so near each other (time-wise)..were there two different photographers taking pics of Stride and Eddowes?..in which case who were these two men?


Phil

I've no certain idea Phil.

However I suspect Joseph Martin did Stride and another, who has been alluded to by Stewart, certainly took the other.

Monty

[Phil Carter]

I've no certain idea Phil.

However I suspect Joseph Martin did Stride and another, who has been alluded to by Stewart, certainly took the other.

Monty

Hello Monty,

Thank you for the kind reply.. I knew Martin was responsible for Tabram et al, but the Stride one I was uncertain about. Isn't that the photo that has "gone missing"? (to be honest I lose track of what is where!)

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hello Monty,

Thank you for the kind reply.. I knew Martin was responsible for Tabram et al, but the Stride one I was uncertain about. Isn't that the photo that has "gone missing"? (to be honest I lose track of what is where!)

Phil

I shouldn't really quote myself but I will refer to the above question again..

Do we actually know where the Stride photo is? Private hands? Collection? The moon?

Just trying to ask a plain question.. not the name of the owner!

Phil

[Phil Carter]

I shouldn't really quote myself but I will refer to the above question again..

Do we actually know where the Stride photo is? Private hands? Collection? The moon?

Just trying to ask a plain question.. not the name of the owner!

Phil

Thanks to a little asking around, I now know where the Stride photo is.

As many others do, but won't tell the world.

Naughty naughty.


Phil

[Monty]

And where is that Phil?

Monty

[Phil Carter]

And where is that Phil?

Monty

You know as well as I do Monty.

And as soon as I get permission to tell the world.. I will :-)


Phil

[Monty]

Go for it.

However I'm not sure you will, and for valid reasons.

Monty

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Forgive me if this all sounds suspiciously similar to SPE, who cannot reveal the name of the photographer of Catherine Eddowes' corpse because it is not within his gift.

Oh Puhleeze.

Meanwhile the rest of us are beating our brains out wondering why the Ripper mystery has trundled on for 135 years.

Regards,

Simon

[Natasha]

Hi All

I have posted the following post before, but I think it has been overlooked.

Stewart P Evans reckons Martin was the photographer, but I have suggested others because they had a connection to the east end area. Also I'm aware the SPE knows of a photographer who took a pic of Eddowes, and cannot reveal who it was.

I think it is possible that photographers kept some of the photos, and their families may have more photos.
I think that if we can narrow down the photographers, then maybe we might be able to get some more pics of the victims. After all MJK3 was handed in 100 years after it was taken.

Just an after thought might seem mad but, is it possible that the ripper was in possession of a camera and took some pictures? It could explain (if Kelly was connected to the other murders) why the organs were still there

I have found a few photographers who may have taken some of the photos. I have chosen to add them as they were living in East London in 1888, and had a connection there. Even if some had retired etc, it is quite plausible that they may have been called in to take a picture.

Here are the candidates:

Barnes, Thomas John
Born Whitechapel 1809.
Christened April 22 1810 in Whitechapel.
Md Mary Sarah Towler (b City of London 1802) January 18 1836 in Finsbury.
1 son.
STUDIOS: 1. 3 Hope Place, Mile End Road, Stepney 1858 - 1861.
2. 52 Crown Row, Mile End Road, Stepney 1861 - October 1 1863.
3. Bedford House, 6 Bedford Place, Commercial Road East, Poplar 1864 - 1866. Succeeded by Dumain & Orchard.
4. 422 Mile End Road, Stepney October 2 1863 - 1887. Succeeded by W Wright.
1861: photographer living at 10 Albion Road, Finchley Road, also proprietor of houses.
Widower.
Freemason, member of Doric Lodge March 11 1863, passed April 8 1863, raised May 13 1863.
Member of the Photographic Society (later The Royal Photographic Society) from January 1871.
Exhibited 2 views 1858 - 1861 at the annual exhibitions of the Architectural Photographic Association.
Worked for Dr Barnardo's Homes, taking before and after photographs of homeless and destitute children at the Homes, also the Methodist Children's Home in Bethnal Green. Barnardo's contract lost 1887.
Bill of sale to Union Deposit Bank July 24 1886 £60.
County court judgement: July 30 1886 £15/14/11, February 22 1887 £17/0/8, July 13 1887 £17/19/2, May 7 1889 £24/19/2.
1891: retired photographer, living at 51 St George's Road, Leyton with 2 grandchildren.
Died in Leytonstone February 11 1901.
BIBLIOGRAPHY: On developing negatives with salts of iron IN PJ June 1858.

Ernest, Charles E
Born in City of London 1836.
Md Martha (b Bow 1841).
1 daughter.
STUDIO: 106 Leighton Road, Kentish Town, St Pancras 1879 - 1880.
1881: engraver living at 68 Pitfield Street, Shoreditch.
1901: general labourer living in London. Also vocalist.
Bill of sale to Imperial Discount Co June 14 1880 £50.
Died in Whitechapel 1905.

Faller, Frederick John
Born in Finsbury 1832.
Md Emma Elizabeth Gibbs (1830 - 1891) June 1 1856 in Bethnal Green.
STUDIO: 118 Whitechapel High Street, Stepney 1861 - 1862. Confectioner here 1863 - 1864.
Confectioner at 121 Whitechapel High Street, Stepney 1861 - 1865.
1881: engineer living at 239 Green Street, Cambridge Road, Bethnal Green.
Died in City of London 1893.

Gottheil, Elias
Born in Prussia 1820. Naturalised British subject November 30 1858.
Md Ann (b Whitechapel 1826).
3 daughters.
STUDIOS: 1. 17a Jubilee Street, Mile End Road, Stepney 1857 - 1863.
2. 23 Assembly Row, Mile End Road, Stepney 1862 - October 1 1863.
3. 120 Mile End Road, Stepney October 2 1863 - 1883. Successors to H Carpenter. Aka Assembly House - for sale November 1882. Opposite Eagle PH.
4. 39 Amhurst Road, Hackney 1887 - 1896. Succeeded by G Maithouse. Also artist here 1891 - 1892; private address 1893 - 1899.
Freemason of Doric Lodge, joined from Faith Lodge 141 April 8 1863.
Secretary of East London Secular Society & editor of Secularist 1856.
Contributed 6 photos of George Jacob Holyoake to Reasoner bazaar May 1857.
Died in Hackney 1899.

Howes, Emma
Born in Whitechapel 1860.
Christened January 13 1861 in City of London.
STUDIO: 204 Mare Street, Hackney 1881 - 1883.
1901: living in Mile End, Stepney.
Bill of sale to Thomas N. Etheridge March 10 1884, £35 Frederick Holloway June 13 1884 £40.
Died in Poplar 1924.

The following photographer (Martin) as far as I know, is the only one mentioned on CB, well his brother was mentioned:


Martin, John
Born in Whitechapel 1862.
Christened December 13 1863 in Stepney.
2 brothers.
Md. Elizabeth (b St George in East 1863).
2 sons & 4 daughters.
STUDIOS: 1. 261 Commercial Road East, Poplar 1891 - 1892.
2. 245 Commercial Road East, Poplar 1892 - 1909. Successors to Israel Martin; succeeded by Louis & Joseph Suss.
1881: waiter at his brother Joseph's restaurant 231 Commercial Road East, Poplar.
1891: photographer living at 245 Commercial Road East, Poplar.
1901: photographer living at 304 Commercial Road East, Poplar.
Styled "& Son" 1891.
County court judgement February 4 1902 £29/3/-, October 28 1904 £32/6/10.
Brother of Isaac, Israel & Joseph Martin.
Aka Martinotype Studio; aka Fine Art Photographic Gallery.
Died in Whitechapel 1909.
COLLECTIONS: Museum of Jewish life.
LITERATURE: advert IN East London Advertiser August 1892 (as established 1851).

The following (Sager and Hutchings) may have photographed the other victims after the C5:


Sager, Samuel
Born in Blackburn 1860.
Christened January 20 1861 in City of London.
STUDIO: 111 New Road, Whitechapel 1897 - 1899.
1881: grocer's assistant living as patient in Islington Smallpox Hospital.
Date of death unknown.

Hutchings, Thomas Alder
Born in Westminster 1845.
1 brother.
Md Emma (b Westminster 1845).
1 son & 2 daughters.
STUDIO: 756 Old Kent Road, Camberwell 1883 - 1884.
1871: photographer living at 7 Calverley Street, Mile End Road, Stepney.
1881: photographer living at 756 Old Kent Road, Camberwell.
1891: photographer living at 4 Ridgate Court, Minories, City of London.
1901: photographer living at 78 Oxford Street, Mile End, Stepney.
Spent 11 years as photographic operator with Barnes & Son, Mile End Road, Stepney.
Died in Whitechapel 1908.


Walker, Samuel
Born in City of London 1818.
Md Hannah (1819 - 1893).
1 son.
STUDIOS: 1. 4 Prospect Place, Cambridge Road, Bethnal Green 1866 - July 31 1879.
2.18 Bishops Road, Cambridge Road, Bethnal Green August 1 1879 - 1883. Succeeded by Henry Marshall.
Portrait painter & photographer in York 1844 - July 1849.
Exhibited at RA 1850 - 1851, from 18 Buckingham Street, Strand, Westminster.
10 photos taken of ruins of Haymarket Opera House December 1867.
Styled "& Son" 1867.
Died in Whitechapel 1892.

Wright, William George Henry
Born in Bethnal Green 1860.
Md Sarah Johnson (b Bethnal Green 1860).
2 sons.
STUDIOS: 1. 12 Millfield Place, Green Lanes, Stoke Newington 1877 - June 16 1881. Absorbed into Green Lanes June 17 1881.
2. 189 - 190 Bethnal Green Road, Bethnal Green 1879 - 1884.
3. 69 Green Lanes, Stoke Newington June 17 1881 - 1884. Printing works.
4. 188 - 190 Bethnal Green Road, Bethnal Green 1884 - 1892.
5. 98 Cheapside, City of London 3 floor 1884 - 1896. Successors to William Henry Prestwich; succeeded by Club Photographic Co.
6. 71 Green Lanes, Stoke Newington 1886 - 1891. Printing works. Succeeded by Robert Hellis.
7. 10 Upper Street, Islington 1886 - 1891. Successors to George & John Springthorpe; succeeded by Edward Sharp.
8. 81 Whitechapel High Street, Stepney 1886 - 1895. Successors to William Hobbs.
9. 422 Mile End Road, Stepney 1889 - 1898. Successors to Thomas John Barnes; succeeded by Henry Francis Turner.
10. 83 Bishopsgate Street Without, City of London 3 floor 1891 - 1909. Renumbered as studio 14 in 1910. Bought by Alfred James Lewis 1900. Aka Adam & Eve Buildings.
11. 189 Bethnal Green Road, Bethnal Green 1893 - 1896.
12. 232 Mare Street, Hackney 1893 - 1897. Successors to Richard Beckett; succeeded by Hellis & Sons.
13. 93 Whitechapel High Street, Stepney 1896 - 1899. Succeeded by Frederick William Lewis.
14. 266 Bishopsgate, City of London 3 floor March 1 1910 - 1911.
15. 21 Broadway, Stratford - in Pritchard, but untraced.
County court judgement January 21 1885 £12/17/- (with 2 other firms) at 109 Bethnal Green Road, Bethnal Green, July 29 1908 £10/6/6.
Bill of sale to John Mills June 30 1908 £70.
Bankrupt June 4 1909.
Son of Edward Wright.
Died in West Ham 1915.