Time Of Death

[Herlock Sholmes]

Not when it came to the doctors in the Stride, Eddowes, and Nichols they weren't, neither was i in saying it , i told you, you didnt get it .

I keep trying to think of a simpler way of explaining the obvious to you but I can’t. This is deliberate on your part. It has to be.

Again Fishy.....I have never said, or even insinuated, that Phillips TOD estimations had to have been wrong. Or that doctors in general couldn’t have gotten TOD’s correct at times.

Nichols, Stride and Eddowes are completely irrelevant. If you toss a coin and get it right three times running this does not prove that predicting a coin toss is infallible!

The very obvious difference with Nichols, Stride and Eddowes is that there was no evidence that contradicted those estimates. This is not the case with Chapman. We have three witnesses that all contradict Phillips. Again Fishy, before you start jumping up and down, yes they could all have been mistaken or lying but we cannot know that for anything like certain. And we certainly cannot say that they were definitely mistaken or lying because Phillips was a doctor and therefore infallible.

Is there another person in the world that can’t understand this....or are you the only one?

[FISHY1118]

What are you waffling on about?

You were told how inaccurate TOD estimates could be.

You quite clearly showed that you didn’t accept this fact.

You were wrong.

Simple as that.

Not when it came to the doctors in the Stride, Eddowes, and Nichols they weren't, neither was i in saying it , i told you, you didnt get it .

Maybe one of these days we will see an example where you don’t dishonestly misinterpret what I post. I said:

Thats rich coming from king Mr Misinterpret himself

This in no way means that I think that everyone is reading this thread. It means that anyone can read back and check what you’ve said should they wish to, as any reasonable minded poster would realise.

Do I have to explain everything to you Fishy? It’s very tiresome.

People are of course free to go back and read all they like , i just hope they have a better understanding of how to interpret the evidence and witness statements and to explore more than just one possibility on how the murders were committed.

Save your explanation Herlock, and take a nap .

[Herlock Sholmes]

Your so vain , i love the way you make it sound like the whole forums watching our post . ohhhhh were all watching fishys post [ silly boy]. like i said t.o.d in relation to jtr escapes you . just a fact .

Maybe one of these days we will see an example where you don’t dishonestly misinterpret what I post. I said:

. We can all see your posts. We know what you said.

This in no way means that I think that everyone is reading this thread. It means that anyone can read back and check what you’ve said should they wish to, as any reasonable minded poster would realise.

Do I have to explain everything to you Fishy? It’s very tiresome.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yep as suspected more nonsense, totally ignored the post about Pash, called Sickert an oddball, and wont entertain any other theory but the Gladstone ,top hat, mad man running through the streets of whitechapel mutilating prostitutes . Yup that about sums you up NARROW MINDED.

Oh we’re back to the Gladstone bag lie are we? Even though I explained to you, in very easy to understand terms, how the Gladstone bag derived from the belief that JTR was a Doctor.

Remind me again Fishy.....which one of us promotes a theory where the ripper was a doctor?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Your so vain , i love the way you make it sound like the whole forums watching our post . ohhhhh were all watching fishys post [ silly boy]. like i said t.o.d in relation to jtr escapes you . just a fact .

What are you waffling on about?

You were told how inaccurate TOD estimates could be.

You quite clearly showed that you didn’t accept this fact.

You were wrong.

Simple as that.

[FISHY1118]

Take off the blinkers Fishy. I’m saying that Knight was wrong about the story in the newspapers. What I’ve said, and again you need to be more accurate when reading, was that in Knight’s book he claimed that the Nickley story was about Netley and Alice Margaret and that he was not only incorrect but he might even have been dishonest because it was apparently very easy to check other newspapers to find the real name of the young girl. Surely as a researcher he’d have looked at other sources for further information. If he’d done this it’s likely he’d have found the real story so it’s possible that he concealed contrary evidence.

Please explain Fishy why you are so keen to give weight to word of mouth stories passed down through the years and concerning an oddball like Sickert and yet you are quite happy to completely ignore actual, provable, concrete facts that dispute the theory. You are clutching at straws.

At that remains is to look at the likelihood of blackmailing prostitutes, Freemasonic murder, Gull, murder in coaches, carrying mutilated corpses and dumping them. So we look. We analyse and consider. Then we conclude......obvious drivel.

Yep as suspected more nonsense, totally ignored the post about Pash, called Sickert an oddball, and wont entertain any other theory but the Gladstone ,top hat, mad man running through the streets of whitechapel mutilating prostitutes . Yup that about sums you up NARROW MINDED.

[FISHY1118]

Give it up Fishy. We can all see your posts. We know what you said. You derided the opinion of the entirety of modern forensic science.

Your so vain , i love the way you make it sound like the whole forums watching our post . ohhhhh were all watching fishys post [ silly boy]. like i said t.o.d in relation to jtr escapes you . just a fact .

[Herlock Sholmes]

Standard response i see...... still see your struggling with the whole time of death issue. you never did understand this concept, oh well so bit it . Thought it was to good to hope for .

Give it up Fishy. We can all see your posts. We know what you said. You derided the opinion of the entirety of modern forensic science.

[Herlock Sholmes]

. I think ill keep this short, im getting tired of your long winded posts about the same old things ive explained over and over again . If you dont want to admit to yourself that these people existed and theses places existed, and were possibly[cant be ruled out ] part of the jack the ripper murders, then go back to another theory and leave this one to those that want to discuss and examine the evidence with out your silly denials that the above was all made up . Utter nonsense on your behalf yet again.

You haven’t explained over and over again. In fact you haven’t explained once. This is yet another lie. I gave you 6 points. You gave 3 dishonest answers (nothing new there) That leaves 3. So, by definition, you haven’t explained them.

Why do you persist in talking about these places existing. The place that Annie Crook was supposed to have lived categorically, without a shadow of a doubt, did not exist. Sickert’s studio, at the address that Joseph stated, categorically, without a shadow of a doubt did not exist. The hospital where Annie was supposed to have been taken categorically, without a shadow of a doubt did not exist. We have written, documented evidence (not word of mouth) that came from Annie herself which states that she want a Catholic.

A serious discussion on the Knight theory cannot take place until facts are accepted. You will not do that because you are hopelessly committed to the theory. You are blinkered.

Are you so totally visually challenged that you cant see for yourself what the implications of Florence Pash saying that it was her and Alice who she claimed Netley tried to run them down , how could knight be wrong if Pash claimed her part in the incident years before his book ? . Wait dont bother , im tired of the same boring word of mouth argument you keep tossing up . Simon would have been better trying to prove Sickert right than wrong, he would have had more success bases on what we know to be true .
And before you go and say ''oh simon has proved it wasn't this and simon says it wasn't that, wheres his proof about Florence Pash and her story BEING ALL MADE UP which just so happen to match the one Joseph told Knight in 1973 . Only hers was 35 years earlier
So on this one fact alone man up, and please dont ever say Joseph Sickert made the whole thing up so he and knight could make a few bucks .LUDICROUS THINKING.

Take off the blinkers Fishy. I’m saying that Knight was wrong about the story in the newspapers. What I’ve said, and again you need to be more accurate when reading, was that in Knight’s book he claimed that the Nickley story was about Netley and Alice Margaret and that he was not only incorrect but he might even have been dishonest because it was apparently very easy to check other newspapers to find the real name of the young girl. Surely as a researcher he’d have looked at other sources for further information. If he’d done this it’s likely he’d have found the real story so it’s possible that he concealed contrary evidence.

Please explain Fishy why you are so keen to give weight to word of mouth stories passed down through the years and concerning an oddball like Sickert and yet you are quite happy to completely ignore actual, provable, concrete facts that dispute the theory. You are clutching at straws.

At that remains is to look at the likelihood of blackmailing prostitutes, Freemasonic murder, Gull, murder in coaches, carrying mutilated corpses and dumping them. So we look. We analyse and consider. Then we conclude......obvious drivel.

[FISHY1118]

Standard response i see...... still see your struggling with the whole time of death issue. you never did understand this concept, oh well so bit it . Thought it was to good to hope for .

[Herlock Sholmes]

Now its my turn to call you out on being a very dishonest poster , i never once said the Wolf Vanderlinden post was the gospel truth, only that my reason for posting it in the first place was to show the many possibilities and the contradictory evidence between Long, Codosch and Richardson And on that one very well written piece, it could be argued that the time of death may well have been different where the murder of Annie Chapman was concerned .

i wont hold by breath for a ''sorry fishy''.

I used the phrase - appear to consider. Your every post gives the impression that you are desperate for everything that supports your theory to be considered a fact. Try checking for accurate language.

On the other hand we have ample evidence that you openly disbelieved and even mocked the fact of the potential inaccuracy of TOD estimates. Asking for apologies from me is breathtaking hypocrisy.

[FISHY1118]

As I’ve told you. I’ve read this well written dissertation twice. You have latched on to it and appear to consider it gospel. I do not.

Now its my turn to call you out on being a very dishonest poster , i never once said the Wolf Vanderlinden post was the gospel truth, only that my reason for posting it in the first place was to show the many possibilities and the contradictory evidence between Long, Codosch and Richardson And on that one very well written piece, it could be argued that the time of death may well have been different where the murder of Annie Chapman was concerned .

i wont hold by breath for a ''sorry fishy''.

[FISHY1118]

I think ill keep this short, im getting tired of your long winded posts about the same old things ive explained over and over again . If you dont want to admit to yourself that these people existed and theses places existed, and were possibly[cant be ruled out ] part of the jack the ripper murders, then go back to another theory and leave this one to those that want to discuss and examine the evidence with out your silly denials that the above was all made up . Utter nonsense on your behalf yet again.

Can you be serious with this response? It’s not me that is guilty of mistakenly believing a newspaper story it was Stephen Knight who said this. He was the one who was wrong.....again.

Are you so totally visually challenged that you cant see for yourself what the implications of Florence Pash saying that it was her and Alice who she claimed Netley tried to run them down , how could knight be wrong if Pash claimed her part in the incident years before his book ? . Wait dont bother , im tired of the same boring word of mouth argument you keep tossing up . Simon would have been better trying to prove Sickert right than wrong, he would have had more success bases on what we know to be true .
And before you go and say ''oh simon has proved it wasn't this and simon says it wasn't that, wheres his proof about Florence Pash and her story BEING ALL MADE UP which just so happen to match the one Joseph told Knight in 1973 . Only hers was 35 years earlier
So on this one fact alone man up, and please dont ever say Joseph Sickert made the whole thing up so he and knight could make a few bucks .LUDICROUS THINKING.

[Herlock Sholmes]

im telling you about chapmans t.od.
I’m well aware of the facts surrounding Chapman’s death. I’ve also stressed that I’ve never said that Phillips couldn’t have been correct only that he could have been wrong. You however have taken an overconfident view that just because 3 other TOD’s were correct then that shows that TOD’s couldn’t have been inaccurate. You have continually and repeatedly dismissed the proven fact that TOD estimations were little more than guesswork. There is no need for further discussion on this unless it’s to discuss the relative merits of the testimonies of Richardson, Cadosch And Long.
im telling you about gulls health.
I’m well aware of the issues surrounding Gull’s health. To repeat, I’ve never said that Gull’s health or age categorically discounted him, only that it makes him unlikely. This appears to be a statement that only you can’t acknowledge and it’s fairly obvious why.
im telling you about eddowes mutilations.
Unsurprisingly you have fixed on the couple of doctors that have suggested that a killer would not have had time to have performed those mutilations and completely disregarded the overwhelming majority (including those at the time) who have said that the killer would have had time. Again, I wonder why?
im telling you about wolf vanderlinden.
As I’ve told you. I’ve read this well written dissertation twice. You have latched on to it and appear to consider it gospel. I do not.
go the 3 west ham players who played in it.
stick the juggling.

. Annie Crook was a Catholic according to her niece Ellen Lackner

Word of mouth, especially from someone that might have had a motive for propagating a story, does not carry anything like the same weight as evidence in writing. Evidence in writing which gave information coming from Annie herself.

.

Sickert had many studio in and around Cleveland st

Firstly, this is a random statement and evidence of absolutely nothing. Can you name any of his alleged Cleveland Street studios and when he was there? We know that he had a studio at nearby Fitzroy Square but years after these events. And of course, most importantly of course, Joseph gave a very particular address. He allegedly knew where this studio was. This studio did not exist.

6. THAT THE NEWSPAPER STORY ALLEGING THAT NETLEY RAN OVER ALICE MARGARET WAS ENTIRELY UNCONNECTED.

The newspaper report which you speak of is irrelevant/ Its also wrong in this case . We have Florence Pashs admission that she told Overton Fuller she was the one who was standing on the corner with a young Alice Crook, when a man matching Netleys description [who she later described to Walter Sickert after the event] deliberately tried to run them both down.

SO theres another you got wrong by believing a newspaper report than a actual person .

Can you be serious with this response? It’s not me that is guilty of mistakenly believing a newspaper story it was Stephen Knight who said this. He was the one who was wrong.....again.

Word of mouth from Pash is hardly concrete evidence is it?

I suppose that I should be grateful. At least you’ve mentioned 3 of the 6 points for the first time. But unfortunately you said that you could prove that Simon’s research was wrong. You obviously haven’t even come close. None of your responses even approach proof. You will need to do better than this. Plus you’ve neglected the other 3 points I see.

[FISHY1118]

Im not asking about Gull’s health.
Im not asking about Chapman’s TOD.
Im not asking about Eddowes mutilations.
Im not asking about Wolf Vanderlinden dissertation.
Im not asking about England’s 1966 World Cup winning team.
Im not asking about the history of juggling.

im telling you about chapmans t.od.
im telling you about gulls health.
im telling you about eddowes mutilations.
im telling you about wolf vanderlinden.
go the 3 west ham players who played in it.
stick the juggling.

Annie Crook was a Catholic according to her niece Ellen Lackner

Sickert had many studio in and around Cleveland st

6. THAT THE NEWSPAPER STORY ALLEGING THAT NETLEY RAN OVER ALICE MARGARET WAS ENTIRELY UNCONNECTED.

The newspaper report which you speak of is irrelevant/ Its also wrong in this case . We have Florence Pashs admission that she told Overton Fuller she was the one who was standing on the corner with a young Alice Crook, when a man matching Netleys description [who she later described to Walter Sickert after the event] deliberately tried to run them both down.

SO theres another you got wrong by believing a newspaper report than a actual person .