Time Of Death

[FISHY1118]

But we know two things for absolute certainty.

1. Jack the Ripper was in the backyard of 29 Hanbury Street that morning.

2. Sir William Gull, John Netley and Walter Sickert weren’t.

1 jack the rippper wasnt

2 gull wasnt

3 netley and sickert cant be excluded

The fact that Cadosch heard something fall against a fence at just after 5.15 and the sound appeared to come from number 29 is at least suggestive.

but not a fact , so we must investigate all possibilities .

[Herlock Sholmes]

like i said cadoschs statement is not proof jtr was in the back yard of 29 hanbury st between 5.15 and 5.26 . So twist it any way you like , sugar coat it any way as well . Still not 100 % proof.

But we know two things for absolute certainty.

1. Jack the Ripper was in the backyard of 29 Hanbury Street that morning.

2. Sir William Gull, John Netley and Walter Sickert weren’t.

[Herlock Sholmes]

[/B]

. H[B]eres the mistake that your missed , long was wrong in her sighting of Chapman at 5.32 outside 29

I never said that she was right.

but....

You cannot possibly know for certain that she was wrong. I won’t ask you for what proof you have because I’ve tried this before and you only dodge answering.

Two errors in one sentence Fishy. Your improving.

,for Codosh to be right ,now pay attention because this is the part you struggle with. Cadosh in no way proves without doubt that the murderer and Chapman were in the yard at 5.15 to 5.30 the'' no'' and the sound of the ''thud'' is not proof,

Never said it was.

. the body was discovered at between 4.55 and 6.00

Nope. It was discovered around 6.00. Please stop posting childish nonsense.

. doesn't mean the murder happen between 5.15 and 5.30 . Try 4.55 to 5.15

Please point out to me where I’ve said that the murder definitely took place between 5.15 and 5.30?

Try between 4.50 or 4.55 (after Richardson left) and 5.55 (just before the body was discovered by Davis.)


The fact that Cadosch heard something fall against a fence at just after 5.15 and the sound appeared to come from number 29 is at least suggestive.

[FISHY1118]

Heres the mistake that your missed , long was wrong in her sighting of Chapman at 5.32 outside 29,for Codosh to be right ,now pay attention because this is the part you struggle with. Cadosh in no way proves without doubt that the murderer and Chapman were in the yard at 5.15 to 5.30 the'' no'' and the sound of the ''thud'' is not proof, the body was discovered at between 4.55 and 6.00 doesn't mean the murder happen between 5.15 and 5.30 . Try 4.55 to 5.15

i see your struggling already , long v codosch read it.Considerable Doubt and the Death of Annie Chapman and this too

[Herlock Sholmes]

its amazing how you and simon the guru use the medical experts of today to disprove the doctors in jack the ripper day , but wont except the same medical experts who claim the it would be impossible to do all the damage done to Eddowes in 5 minutes .


Try and let this sink in Herlock. You are seriously embarrassing yourself by saying “I don’t believe the medical experts of today where Eddowes is concerned.


''I’m wasting no more time on you'' WE LIVE IN HOPE .

Every second discussing the case with you is a second wasted. The medical experts of today know more about TOD’s than doctors like Phillips did. You know it’s true. It cannot be untrue. The weight of evidence is overwhelming. It’s proven.

Chapman wasn’t in the yard at 4.45 when Richardson sat mending his shoe. So let’s say he left that building at 4.50-4.55. It’s ludicrous to suggest that Richardson might have missed a mutilated corpse around 3 feet from him. Davis found her at 6 so we can state roughly that the killer had left by 5.55 at the latest. And so Chapman was killed between 4.50 and 5.55am. So Mrs Long or Albert Cadosch might have been correct but they can’t both have been. They might have been lying or they might have been mistaken. We have no way of evaluating to say which, if either, of them were correct.

There were people around. Two people entering a house mightn’t have warranted a second glance. Might the same have been said for two men unloading a mutilated corpse from a coach, carrying it across the pavement and into a house!

““Oh look, number 29 have ordered a murdered prostitute from Amazon!””

Have we really sunk so low that someone can deny a whole world of forensic medical experts simply to be able to prop up this laughable tripe?!

Anyone that thinks that these women were killed in a coach by 71 year old stroke victim Sir William Gull and then dumped at certain spots around the East End (risking being seen) is living in cloud cuckoo land. It’s time to stop humouring the delusional just to be polite. Respect is earned.

[FISHY1118]

its amazing how you and simon the guru use the medical experts of today to disprove the doctors in jack the ripper day , but wont except the same medical experts who claim the it would be impossible to do all the damage done to Eddowes in 5 minutes .


Try and let this sink in Herlock. You are seriously embarrassing yourself by saying “I don’t believe the medical experts of today where Eddowes is concerned.


''I’m wasting no more time on you'' WE LIVE IN HOPE .

[Herlock Sholmes]

i dont no if your a aware or not, but in the case of Nichols, Eddows and Stride, that all three doctors were ''CORRECT'' in their opinion as to the time of death . theres nothing wrong with being right either .

I’m wasting no more time on you. How old are you Fishy? You debate like a six year old.

Why do you keep denying what all experts in the field of forensics say Fishy?

It doesn’t matter that they got it right three times. Doctors would have gotten TOD’s correct 1000’s of times throughout history but they would have gotten it wrong 1000000’s of times. It was a lottery. That they got Nichols, Eddowes and Stride right means NOTHING. They also had other evidence which might have formed their opinion. There have been cases when Forensic Scientist (much later than the Victorians) have been years out of date with TOD’s! Yes Years. I can quote if you don’t believe me.

Try and let this sink in Fishy. You are seriously embarrassing yourself by saying “I don’t care what Forensic science says. I’ve worked out that TOD’s were accurate.”

[FISHY1118]

i dont no if your a aware or not, but in the case of Nichols, Eddows and Stride, that all three doctors were ''CORRECT'' in their opinion as to the time of death . theres nothing wrong with being right either .

[Herlock Sholmes]

ive heard some silly things in my time but this takes the cake , misunderstood , i do still think so.

Fishy - I know that you’re allergic to them but here are some factual quotes from real experts. A book recommended to me by former poster David Orsam.

Four quotes taken from: Time Of Death: The True Story Of The Search For Death’s Stopwatch by Jessica Snyder Sachs.

But from their first use, the pathologist’s three standard timepieces have proven unreliable, plagued as they are by death’s infinite variations. Age, body size, health, manner of death, ambient temperature, air movement, even something as seemingly ineffable as the agony of a victim’s final moments has been found to skew the body’s post mortem changes beyond predictability.


Still, the myth of the medical expert’s ability to nail down time of death endured.


Yet (Jay) Dix - one of the nations top pathologists and the author of the 1999 forensic atlas, Time of Death, Decomposition and Identification - sees it done all the time. “I’m continually reviewing cases in which pathologists pinpoint death to within a few hours, “he said. “Not that I’ve ever seen a case where it was appropriate.”


“If a pathologist says that death occurred at such and such a time, I say get the handcuffs out, he was there,” contends medical examiner Stephen Cina of the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology.


Theres no shame in admitting that you’re wrong.

And you are wrong.

Without a shadow of a doubt.

[packers stem]

The back yard of 29 Hanbury ,Annie Chapman body was found between the fence and the steps below the door, would that be a fair statement. ?.....distance from fence to steps approx 3 feet . no/yes ?

2-3 at a guess

Question... is that the rear door to the back yard of number 27 Hanbury st on the other side of the fence .?

Yes

[FISHY1118]

see,i misunderstand, i do not think so.



I have pointed out that the tods you are quoting were based on witness statements, not on medical evidence.

ive heard some silly things in my time but this takes the cake , misunderstood , i do still think so.

[FISHY1118]

I can say with 100% certainty that the Inquest had no interest in what may or may not have happened in #25, at least before the murder, so why call Cadosche at all? Because his statement is ONLY relevant with respect to the murder in backyard of 29.
Why do you continue to try and make the irrelevant relevant is beyond me...and most other posters here...you don't go by the name Pierre at times do you?

Its quiet clear to me and most people who have researched the statements of long and cadosch that you have very little understanding of what the implications of their testimonies actually mean ,. So heres a tip for you . Go read the casebook pages on the subject '' Long v Codosch'' and ''considerable doubt the death of Annie Chapman'' and you just might learn a thing or two .But then again you might not.

[packers stem]

I never said it was a reliable method of determining TOD and had she had a steak dinner I may agree .
It's a light meal of a potato

half an hour ,maybe an hour
Three and three quarters goes well beyond 'unreliable method'

[packers stem]

It was a POTATO
It takes next to no time to digest
It wasn't a banquet lol

[John G]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...B8lXvoyUT3okrf

whole lot of reading and charts but the basic important info was on page 2
In that ....

A light meal you can expect to digest in half an hour to two hours

and

that carbohydrates are the quickest to digest .

We know she ate a potato
We also know that a potato is a light meal and a carbohydrate

So you have light meal combined with carbohydrate = considerably less than two hours in all likelihood

You will make of it what you will

You may also spot the 30 minutes for fish in there ....
Bond's spotting of fish and potato with the naked eye was nothing short of miraculous

Regarding the reference you cite, which I'd also looked at, the crucial part is actual this:

"However, a head injury, physical or mental shock or stress may completely inhibit the secretion of gastric juice, the motility of the stomach, and the opening of the pylorus, and undigested food may be seen after more than 24 hours. Any illness, or emotional stress, may prolonged the emptyimg time for many hours."

Now, Chapman had indeed been ill-she'd discussed visiting the casual ward. And as she'd been walking the streets for several hours, and was under threat of eviction, I would say she would have been under a great deal of "emotional stress". Wouldn't you?