Dr Timothy R. Killeen

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Gary - Understood, but I think we are treading water. A 'great' wound and a series of smaller "frightful" wounds can be inflicted with the same weapon.

Further, the article quoting Hewitt also states the other wounds (plural) were inflicted with 'great force'...and even suggests a bayonet.

"Frightful"..."great force"... a "bayonet"...wounds that we know penetrated the rib cage...

I'm not seeing anything that indicates that the difference between the wounds was obvious and beyond dispute.

And it's not me suggesting caution and skepticism..it's Dr. Biggs, Dr. Rivello, etc.

Perhaps there was more...we have no actual medical report...but a strict reading of Killeen's inquest statement indicates that the blade's ability to break through the sternum was what differentiated that wound from the others.

Is that enough?

Folding pocket knives are dangerous to the holder rj, particularly when pressure is applied to the blades tip. There are 3 other ways it could break...left/right/back and the danger of it folding back in on itself is obvious.

[harry]

Doctor Grabham's autopsy report on Bryan.
There was a large gaping clean cut wound in front of the chest,having an oval outline,and measuring 6 and a half inches by 2 and a half inches.It's upper limit was on the breast bone,about 1and a half inches below the upper end of that bone.The lower limit was about 2 inches above the left nipple.The direction of the wound was completely downwards towards the left side.The wound had exposed the spaces between the first and second,and the second and third ribs.
The gristly extremity of the second rib had been completely cut across,and there was also a deep incision in the gristly portion of the breast bone.The cut surface of the gristly was perfectly smooth. On opening the chest,the wound already described,was found to extend to the space in which the heart lies,and to have penetrated the left auricle of the heart,an aperture of about half an inch in length having been formed.
The incised wound on the heart was the primary cause of death,and the immediate cause hemmorrage from the wound.
The weapon claimed to have inflicted this wound was described as a penknife.It was produced in the court.The claim a penknife could not have caused that wound was made. Twelve people on the jury,the prosecution and the police obviously thought differently. The accused was found guilty and hanged.

[Michael W Richards]

Doctor Grabham's autopsy report on Bryan.
There was a large gaping clean cut wound in front of the chest,having an oval outline,and measuring 6 and a half inches by 2 and a half inches.It's upper limit was on the breast bone,about 1and a half inches below the upper end of that bone.The lower limit was about 2 inches above the left nipple.The direction of the wound was completely downwards towards the left side.The wound had exposed the spaces between the first and second,and the second and third ribs.
The gristly extremity of the second rib had been completely cut across,and there was also a deep incision in the gristly portion of the breast bone.The cut surface of the gristly was perfectly smooth. On opening the chest,the wound already described,was found to extend to the space in which the heart lies,and to have penetrated the left auricle of the heart,an aperture of about half an inch in length having been formed.
The incised wound on the heart was the primary cause of death,and the immediate cause hemmorrage from the wound.
The weapon claimed to have inflicted this wound was described as a penknife.It was produced in the court.The claim a penknife could not have caused that wound was made. Twelve people on the jury,the prosecution and the police obviously thought differently. The accused was found guilty and hanged.

If I read that correctly the penetration of the knife into the pericardium was through "gristle". Yes, that penknife was capable of grievous injury. Is that to say that's the same kind of penknife that made the wounds Killeen saw? No.

[rjpalmer]

In 2008 there was a stabbing murder in Calgary. The police thought that all the stabs, 37 of them, were made by a butcher knife from the block in the kitchen that the killer had by him when they arrived. It was later discovered that in fact 3 different knives were used. So much for modern experts there.

Thanks, Michael.

But the fact that someone (was it the police or was is it the medical examiner?) believed that one knife was used in an attack, when three knives were actually used, is not a valid counterargument to my view.

It actually supports my contention that it is difficult to determine what weapon was used, and that errors are not infrequent.

This should not be controversial; numerous forensic experts have warned us about this, including Trevor's consultant, Dr. Biggs.

[harry]

Michael,
If you read it properly,the wound extended past the breastbone,which had been incised.
Does a difference in the penknives matter? The arguement in Tabrams murder was that a penknife could not have penetrated the sternum.It did not state the kind of penknife.That arguement has been shown to be incorrect.

[Michael W Richards]

I acquiesce on the issue whether or not a "Pen knife" could penetrate deep enough to make a 2 blade conclusion premature, I would however question whether all who refer to the blade as such are talking about the same category of weapon. Pen Knives have been at some point in time self describing,... Folding knives, Pocket knives..people have been making easy to carry knives of all sizes for some time. The descriptor Pen Knife is a specific category. That it folds and can be carried are just features.

I have no trouble accepting that Killeen saw something different in that one wound to validate his statement, and I don't believe that a modern expert or the fact that pathology was primitive in those days as reasons to challenge it. This is still, for me, a question of the number of assailants, not weapons...the different wounds allow for that question.