Originally posted by MrBarnett
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Dr Timothy R. Killeen
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The differences between the Times, ELO and ELA versions of Killeen’s description of the heart wound are interesting.
ELO
The heart was rather fatty, and was penetrated in one place, but there was otherwise nothing in the heart to cause death, although there was some blood in the pericardium.
Times:
The heart, which was rather fatty, was penetrated in one place, and that would be sufficient to cause death.
ELA
The heart was rather fatty and it was penetrated in one place, but otherwise it was healthy. There was nothing in it likely to cause death.
None of them says the heart wound would have caused death instantly.Last edited by MrBarnett; 05-28-2020, 02:41 PM.
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Originally posted by rjpalmer View PostHi Gary -- Dr. Killen's deposition, given in The Times, is the most important source, of course. But Killen's phrase is ever-so-slightly ambiguous. "The wounds generally might have been inflicted by a knife, but such an instrument could not have inflicted one of the wounds, which went through the chest-bone."
This is usually taken to mean that Killen is suggesting that two different weapons were used, but could he simply have been thinking out loud? To me, Killeen might only mean that, in judging between a knife and a dagger (he is uncertain which), the sternum wound suggests the latter, as a pen-knife couldn't have done it. He sounds a little uncertain and is hedging his bet. He hasn't had very much experience in these sorts of things, being a GP out of medical school, so how could it be otherwise?
When Swanson summarizes Killeen in a report filed in September, he doesn't refer to any theory of two knives.
"Dr. Keeling [sic] of 68 Brick Lane was called, and examined the body and found thirty nine wounds on the body, and neck, and private part with a knife or dagger."
Knife OR dagger...not knife AND dagger. This would be have been a very important distinction in an unsolved crime, would it not? Would Swanson have been so loose in his description had he believed the two weapon theory? He doesn't even allude to it. He refers to uncertainty about the ONE weapon.
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Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
I don’t know, Fish.
Yes, the info is provided for the C5, and for Alice McKenzie, whose death cert I received a few weeks back. Here’s what was on Alice’s cert:
Violent
Syncope from loss
of blood through
the Carotid vessels
being divided by
some sharp instrument
Wilful murder
Post Mortem
The other noticeable difference between the two is that there’s no mention of a PM on Martha’s cert.
Any which way, it is an odd matter!
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Originally posted by Dave O View PostThere's some testimony from Killeen from another case that's included among records from the North East Middlesex coroner's district held at the LMA (2nd box). I thought I'd put it up if it's of interest. This inquest was held on the body of a newborn infant found dead in Spitalfields, October 1888.
From the initial investigation by the coroner's officer, B. Beavis, for a warrant to hold an inquest:
Mysterious death. The mother of Decd. (unmarried) went to bed about 11 pm on Tuesday 9 Oct. the person with whom she lived (inserted ‘Mrs. Green’) had then no reason to suppose that she was enceinte. About 7 a m on Wednesday 10th. Inst., Mrs. Green went into the bed room + found that she had given birth to decd – who was dead. Dr. Killeen asks for a Post Mortem examination to ascertain whether dead was born alive [see his letter] (lma/mj/spc/ne296a, from form for request for a warrant for an inquest by B. Beavis, coroner’s officer).
No letter is preserved in the record, but Killeen's testimony is included:
Timothy Robert Killeen, on his oath says I reside at 68 Brick Lane I am LRC.PI + [illegible]. I was called on Wednesday 10th October to 16 Church Street Spitalfields and found that Dinah Israel a Single Woman had during the night given birth to a female child apparently full formed and well developed. The child was dead and unattended to. Cord and [illegible] with Placenta attached.
External appearance – No marks of violence
Skin – Livid
Fingers were lightly closed on palms of the hands
I have since by your order made a Post Mortem examination on the 11th Inst and I find
Brain Membranes. Congested. with the Sinuses full
of dark blood
Brain Substance. Healthy
Lungs & Pleura Healthy and no fluid in Cavity
Lungs + Heart attached Float in water
Lungs without Heart Float in water
Liver - Very large and full of dark blood and there was still dark blood in the portion of Cord which would become the obliterative remains of the umbilical cord
In my opinion and to the best of my belief death was due to want of proper attendance at birth
The Child was born alive
The Length was the ordinary one and the weight was above the ordinary
The Child was covered with Dust. it did not seem to me the dust that would come from the ceiling. A portion of the Ceiling was broken there was not sufficient dust on the floor to cause the child to be covered – The mother told me she had put the child in a pail. I asked to see it but Mrs. Green told me she knew nothing about it. She said there was no pail there (lma/m/spc/ne296b)
I'm taken by Killeen's examination of the dust.
Dave
Presumably the prosecution felt there was insufficient evidence to proceed with the prosecution.
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And Polly Nichols:
Violent
Syncope from loss of
blood from wounds in
neck and abdomen
inflicted by some
sharp instrument
Wilful Murder
against some
person or persons
unknown
Post Mortem
This certificate is in the same hand as Tabram’s, presumably it was written by John Hall the Whitechapel registrar (and horse coroner).
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Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
Good work, Gary - and the matter is interesting. Could it be that the victorians found the true cause of death too revolting to put on paper...? Then again, there were worse examples in the C5 who were even more revolting, so it seems not to have been the case.
I really cannot think of a reason. And I definitely don´t think it´s about disagreeing with Killeen. Do you?
Yes, the info is provided for the C5, and for Alice McKenzie, whose death cert I received a few weeks back. Here’s what was on Alice’s cert:
Violent
Syncope from loss
of blood through
the Carotid vessels
being divided by
some sharp instrument
Wilful murder
Post Mortem
The other noticeable difference between the two is that there’s no mention of a PM on Martha’s cert.
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Originally posted by MrBarnett View PostI’ve trawled through the numerous death certs I’ve accumulated as a result of my interest in JTR and family research and haven’t found a single example of one that didn’t provide a medical cause of death.
If we could find a few examples, we might be able to discern a pattern that explains the lack of such info on the Tabram death cert. Being desperately poor and dying in the Whitechapel registration district doesn’t appear to be the explanation.
I really cannot think of a reason. And I definitely don´t think it´s about disagreeing with Killeen. Do you?
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I’ve trawled through the numerous death certs I’ve accumulated as a result of my interest in JTR and family research and haven’t found a single example of one that didn’t provide a medical cause of death.
If we could find a few examples, we might be able to discern a pattern that explains the lack of such info on the Tabram death cert. Being desperately poor and dying in the Whitechapel registration district doesn’t appear to be the explanation.
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We can also agree that it wasn’t a fish knife, which lets you off the hook.;-)
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Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
Laguiole are best known for their steak knives, are they not? Not all knives used at the table are commonly called table knives.
In my cutlery drawer I have steak knives, bread knives, carving knives, a cheese knife or two, all of which are used at the table, but I wouldn’t call any of them ‘table knives’.
Personally, if I was to describe what I find is a typical table knife, I would describe a rather dull knife with a serrated edge and a rounded tip. And I don´t see such an implement piercing a sternum. I do, however, see many of the knives described by Google as table knives doing just that. Basically, are not all knives that accompany a plate on the table table knives...? Used to set the table, as it were?
Unless we know the exact type of table knife Cornwell referred to, we may have a hard time agreeing about the ferocity of such implements. Maybe we can agree that although the knife reportedly went through the sternum as if it was butter, we are probably not talking about a butter knife...?Last edited by Fisherman; 05-27-2020, 05:25 PM.
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Originally posted by Fisherman View PostAs for table knives, Gary, check out the Laguiole ones from France - it is the type I cut that yearly entrecote with. Kind of intimidating!
In my cutlery drawer I have steak knives, bread knives, carving knives, a cheese knife or two, all of which are used at the table, but I wouldn’t call any of them ‘table knives’.
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As for table knives, Gary, check out the Laguiole ones from France - it is the type I cut that yearly entrecote with. Kind of intimidating!
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Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
I’m pretty sure the absence of any medical information on the death certificate had nothing to do with Martha’s position in society. I’ve seen a good many death certs of the poorest of the poor in the East End and I can’t recall one than provided no medical cause of death. I’ll have a check through my files later to see if I’ve forgotten any.
So we’re left with three possibilities, I think:
An oversight on the part of Baxter or his office.
An uncertainty as to what the cause of death actually was.
A mistake by the registrar.
The three possibilities you speak of have one thing in common - neither seems likely. I believe Killeen put the death down to bleeding, although I have always found it a tad odd since he said that the 38 smaller wounds came first and were survived by Tabram, whereas the punctured heart was sufficient to cause death. Are you making the presumption that the left out medical information equals a disqualification of Killeens judgment?Last edited by Fisherman; 05-27-2020, 03:19 PM.
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