Dr Timothy R. Killeen

[harry]

It is because of a difference in only one wound,that the suspicion of a second weapon was recorded.Sternum injuries are likely to show other than a clean wound,sometimes because of the force needed to withdraw.So my opinion is that there was only one weapon used in the murder of Tabram.

[MrBarnett]

Nope. And there’s nothing in Killeen’s testimony that would gainsay that.

That’s not true of course. Silly me. Killeen was of the opinion that all the wounds had been inflicted while Martha was still alive. But would he have been able to distinguish wounds inflicted immediately after death from those inflicted during life?

[MrBarnett]

Is it too illogical to work with the killer striking the fatal blow first before moving on to post mortem mutilation, as was the Whitechapel killers MO? Assuming Tabram was victim to the same killer. I'm not stating this as fact, but exploring all options.

Nope. And there’s nothing in Killeen’s testimony that would gainsay that.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Is it too illogical to work with the killer striking the fatal blow first before moving on to post mortem mutilation, as was the Whitechapel killers MO? Assuming Tabram was victim to the same killer. I'm not stating this as fact, but exploring all options.

[MrBarnett]

Its been considered Mr Barnett. But when you use probabilities, practicalities and logic it seems so unlikely as to be little more than a distraction as an idea. I submit that if one man started stabbing her with the pen knife, which left her still technically alive for the last blow, which was a much larger blade, its because he used the knife he had on him. Why would he use something that was essentially useless for killing someone by stabbing if he had something else that could kill with a single stab? Why would it only be used once? Because by that time one final stab was all that was needed to end the attack once and for all.

Because the smaller weapon was easier to use and in his rage he struck with the easiest/closest weapon he had to hand. When his rage subsided and he realised he needed to make sure his victim was dead he used another weapon. There is nothing whatsoever illogical or impractical about that.

[Michael W Richards]

Why a ‘non-starter’? That suggests you think it is too unlikely even to be considered.

Its been considered Mr Barnett. But when you use probabilities, practicalities and logic it seems so unlikely as to be little more than a distraction as an idea. I submit that if one man started stabbing her with the pen knife, which left her still technically alive for the last blow, which was a much larger blade, its because he used the knife he had on him. Why would he use something that was essentially useless for killing someone by stabbing if he had something else that could kill with a single stab? Why would it only be used once? Because by that time one final stab was all that was needed to end the attack once and for all.

[MrBarnett]

I believe its a non-starter to suggest that one man used a pen knife first then the dagger.

Why a ‘non-starter’? That suggests you think it is too unlikely even to be considered.

[Michael W Richards]

I know of a case a few years back in Calgary Alberta where the defender/attacker used 3 different knives to stab someone 35 times...the difference being he was in his own kitchen and he grabbed new ones from the knife holder on the counter as they broke. Marthas killer carried what he used.

[Michael W Richards]

Yes, for sure, Harry. Although if when he starts he is just venting and uncontrolled then the use of a larger weapon may be the result of him recognizing that the injuries he inflicted to that point could send him to jail for life if the woman lived to tell the tale. So he ends the assault with a final, dramatic fatal stab. Using a large blade. Did he start the assault with the intention of ending life? Who can say.

I believe its a non-starter to suggest that one man used a pen knife first then the dagger.

[Michael W Richards]

If the intent,from the beginning,was to kill,and the killer had two weapons,isn't it logical to expect he would first use the most suitable weapon to achieve that object?

Yes, for sure, Harry. Although if when he starts he is just venting and uncontrolled then the use of a parger weapon may be the result of him recognizing that the injuries he inflicted to that point could send him to jail for life if the woman lived to tell the tale. So he ends the assault with a final, dramatic fatal stab. Using a large blade. Did he start the assault with the intention of ending life? Who can say.

[MrBarnett]

In 1895, Tim applied for the position of Medical Officer of the Ennis Union. There were three candidates. Tim came third.

[MrBarnett]

Killeen even got a mention in the House of Commons. This is from HANSARD, 28th April, 1890:


“THE MEDICAL OFFICER IN THE KILLANIR (sic) DISTRICT.

MR. JORDAN I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland why the Constabulary in the Killanir Dispensary district, Ennis Union, County Clare, were taken from under the medical care of Dr. T. R. Killeen, the medical officer of the district, and who was receiving pay from the Constabulary at the time, and handed over to Dr. Faris, Ennis, who had no connection with the district; whether the Inspector General of Royal Irish Constabulary issued, or caused to be issued, an order under the regulations of the Force, that every medical officer of a dispensary district should be medical attendant on the constabulary of his district if he cared to accept the position, and provided he was not unfitted for the appointment; whether Dr. Killeen was unfitted; and whether there is another dispensary district in Clare where the medical officer for such district is not also medical attendant on the constabulary in his district?

MR. A. J. BALFOUR The Constabulary authorities report that Dr. Killeen had merely acted under a private arrangement with the previous medical attendant as his locum tenens when the latter was incapacitated through ill health, but be had never been the appointed Constabulary medical attendant of the district. There is no regulation of the nature indicated in the second paragraph. Prior to 1883 some, such regulation did exist, but it was in that year cancelled by the Government of the day, as it was found to work unsatisfactorily. The gentleman appointed in the room of the late medical attendant has been selected by the Constabulary authorities as being, in their opinion, the most suited for the appointment. The reply to the inquiry in the last paragraph is in the affirmative.”


A man from another district was preferred to Killeen, the existing MO for Killaniv District who had been performing the Constabulary role as a locum.

[harry]

If the intent,from the beginning,was to kill,and the killer had two weapons,isn't it logical to expect he would first use the most suitable weapon to achieve that object?

[Michael W Richards]

Unless the larger blade was used to kill, leaving the perpetrator to inflict multiple wounds with impunity. That's alot of wounds to inflict without a fight or serious noise.

If you can accept that it is highly unlikely that a single killer would switch from a large blade to a small blade and back again...which I can easily....then you have a wound that was intended on its own to end life. That all suggests that either A) the killer finally got tired of trying to kill this woman with a penknife and remembers he has a larger blade on him to finish the job, or someone else has the large blade and uses it to end the attack.

I think the far more probable scenario is based on a second man arriving to find his mate struggling to kill someone with a penknife and steps in to end it and get him the hell out of there. 2 Soldiers, for my money. The noise with the penknife stabs isn't really a huge issue with one hand over her mouth.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

The idea that a larger weapon if available would be used then it would then be switched for a smaller blade for some stabs isn't logical. The idea that a small blade was used until a larger blade was produced is.

Unless the larger blade was used to kill, leaving the perpetrator to inflict multiple wounds with impunity. That's alot of wounds to inflict without a fight or serious noise.