Dr Timothy R. Killeen

[Fisherman]

A better analogy might be that he went from catching goldfish in a Dublin pond with a net and was then dropped on the banks of the river Tweed and asked to catch a grayling with a dry fly.

How about proving the manīs incompetence instead of leading it on with no good reason at all? Or are we past an intelligible discussion?

[Fisherman]

It’s on this thread somewhere, I believe. I’ll see if I can find it. A bit later if that’s OK.

Never mind, I found it in a post from Dave O some years back:


There's some testimony from Killeen from another case that's included among records from the North East Middlesex coroner's district held at the LMA (2nd box). I thought I'd put it up if it's of interest. This inquest was held on the body of a newborn infant found dead in Spitalfields, October 1888.

From the initial investigation by the coroner's officer, B. Beavis, for a warrant to hold an inquest:

Mysterious death. The mother of Decd. (unmarried) went to bed about 11 pm on Tuesday 9 Oct. the person with whom she lived (inserted ‘Mrs. Green’) had then no reason to suppose that she was enceinte. About 7 a m on Wednesday 10th. Inst., Mrs. Green went into the bed room + found that she had given birth to decd – who was dead. Dr. Killeen asks for a Post Mortem examination to ascertain whether dead was born alive [see his letter] (lma/mj/spc/ne296a, from form for request for a warrant for an inquest by B. Beavis, coroner’s officer).

No letter is preserved in the record, but Killeen's testimony is included:

Timothy Robert Killeen, on his oath says I reside at 68 Brick Lane I am LRC.PI + [illegible]. I was called on Wednesday 10th October to 16 Church Street Spitalfields and found that Dinah Israel a Single Woman had during the night given birth to a female child apparently full formed and well developed. The child was dead and unattended to. Cord and [illegible] with Placenta attached.
External appearance – No marks of violence
Skin – Livid
Fingers were lightly closed on palms of the hands
I have since by your order made a Post Mortem examination on the 11th Inst and I find
Brain Membranes. Congested. with the Sinuses full
of dark blood
Brain Substance. Healthy
Lungs & Pleura Healthy and no fluid in Cavity
Lungs + Heart attached Float in water
Lungs without Heart Float in water
Liver - Very large and full of dark blood and there was still dark blood in the portion of Cord which would become the obliterative remains of the umbilical cord
In my opinion and to the best of my belief death was due to want of proper attendance at birth
The Child was born alive
The Length was the ordinary one and the weight was above the ordinary
The Child was covered with Dust. it did not seem to me the dust that would come from the ceiling. A portion of the Ceiling was broken there was not sufficient dust on the floor to cause the child to be covered – The mother told me she had put the child in a pail. I asked to see it but Mrs. Green told me she knew nothing about it. She said there was no pail there (lma/m/spc/ne296b)

I'm taken by Killeen's examination of the dust.

Dave

I cannot see where Killen must have been wrong here. Or that he acted wrongfully when making his call. Can you?

[Fisherman]

When I was looking at this before I consulted an 1888 pathology textbook and the distinction between punctured and incised wounds was very clear.

Whatever record of Polly’s inquest has survived, her death certificate is very clear on the medical cause of her death: ‘Syncope from loss of blood from wounds in neck and abdomen inflicted by some sharp instrument.’ As I say, for all her death cert tells us Tabram may have been drowned or deliberately run over by a Pickfords van.

There’s no witch hunt going on, Killeen’s inexperience is a interesting fact. Over on the other site I’ve dug into his background in a bit more depth.

The comment you made was that Killeen did not mention the incised wound. That is why I pointed to how Llewellyn was very sparse about the wounds to Nichols, just as Phillips would have been if Baxter had not disallowed it. The left out cause of death on Tabrams death certificate does not prove any incompetence on behalf of Killeen. and once again, the matter of punctured/incised wounds is not something that makes me despair about Killeenīs abilities.

Is Killeens inexperience "an interesting fact"? Yes, it is - the way ALL facts in the Ripper drama are interesting per se. The pertinent question is another one, however: does his inexperience allow us to reason that he was more likely than not to get the matter of the two wepaons wrong? it is a question you have avoided so far, but it would be interesting to hear what you think about it. Do you agree with me that he COULD have been wrong, or do you promote the idea that he WOULD have been wrong?

[MrBarnett]

Never mind, I found it in a post from Dave O some years back:


There's some testimony from Killeen from another case that's included among records from the North East Middlesex coroner's district held at the LMA (2nd box). I thought I'd put it up if it's of interest. This inquest was held on the body of a newborn infant found dead in Spitalfields, October 1888.

From the initial investigation by the coroner's officer, B. Beavis, for a warrant to hold an inquest:

Mysterious death. The mother of Decd. (unmarried) went to bed about 11 pm on Tuesday 9 Oct. the person with whom she lived (inserted ‘Mrs. Green’) had then no reason to suppose that she was enceinte. About 7 a m on Wednesday 10th. Inst., Mrs. Green went into the bed room + found that she had given birth to decd – who was dead. Dr. Killeen asks for a Post Mortem examination to ascertain whether dead was born alive [see his letter] (lma/mj/spc/ne296a, from form for request for a warrant for an inquest by B. Beavis, coroner’s officer).

No letter is preserved in the record, but Killeen's testimony is included:

Timothy Robert Killeen, on his oath says I reside at 68 Brick Lane I am LRC.PI + [illegible]. I was called on Wednesday 10th October to 16 Church Street Spitalfields and found that Dinah Israel a Single Woman had during the night given birth to a female child apparently full formed and well developed. The child was dead and unattended to. Cord and [illegible] with Placenta attached.
External appearance – No marks of violence
Skin – Livid
Fingers were lightly closed on palms of the hands
I have since by your order made a Post Mortem examination on the 11th Inst and I find
Brain Membranes. Congested. with the Sinuses full
of dark blood
Brain Substance. Healthy
Lungs & Pleura Healthy and no fluid in Cavity
Lungs + Heart attached Float in water
Lungs without Heart Float in water
Liver - Very large and full of dark blood and there was still dark blood in the portion of Cord which would become the obliterative remains of the umbilical cord
In my opinion and to the best of my belief death was due to want of proper attendance at birth
The Child was born alive
The Length was the ordinary one and the weight was above the ordinary
The Child was covered with Dust. it did not seem to me the dust that would come from the ceiling. A portion of the Ceiling was broken there was not sufficient dust on the floor to cause the child to be covered – The mother told me she had put the child in a pail. I asked to see it but Mrs. Green told me she knew nothing about it. She said there was no pail there (lma/m/spc/ne296b)

I'm taken by Killeen's examination of the dust.

Dave

I cannot see where Killen must have been wrong here. Or that he acted wrongfully when making his call. Can you?

Someone seems to have made a mistake. If the case for a charge of illegal killing of some description was based on Killeen’s medical evidence, perhaps that was at fault in some way. Or perhaps the police drew the wrong conclusion from the evidence.

Incidentally, there is no requirement on anyone to prove or disprove Killeen’s competence. However, if in researching his background we find certain indications that not only was he very green but his training may have been lacking in some way, it’s worth discussing. At least I think so.

[MrBarnett]

The comment you made was that Killeen did not mention the incised wound. That is why I pointed to how Llewellyn was very sparse about the wounds to Nichols, just as Phillips would have been if Baxter had not disallowed it. The left out cause of death on Tabrams death certificate does not prove any incompetence on behalf of Killeen. and once again, the matter of punctured/incised wounds is not something that makes me despair about Killeenīs abilities.

Is Killeens inexperience "an interesting fact"? Yes, it is - the way ALL facts in the Ripper drama are interesting per se. The pertinent question is another one, however: does his inexperience allow us to reason that he was more likely than not to get the matter of the two wepaons wrong? it is a question you have avoided so far, but it would be interesting to hear what you think about it. Do you agree with me that he COULD have been wrong, or do you promote the idea that he WOULD have been wrong?

Could. And is more likely to have been than a more experienced man.

[MrBarnett]

I moved on from Killeen when I found that his family were still living in the area of Clare where he was born and spent almost his entire life, and that there had recently been a tragedy in the family. It ceased being a parlour game at that point and felt intrusive. A similar thing happened when I was researching the Tomkins family.

What became clear about Killeen by looking into his life after Whitechapel is that he never really progressed beyond being a local GP in an area in which his family were seemingly quite influential.

I was left with the impression that he was either:

Not very ambitious,

Not overly competent,

or, to put a positive slant on it, very dedicated to the poor people of his part of County Clare.

I’ve no idea if any of those, singly, or in combination are true.

[Fisherman]

Could. And is more likely to have been than a more experienced man.

Then we simply agree, Gary. I too say that he could have been wrong, since no other stance is possible.

[Fisherman]

I moved on from Killeen when I found that his family were still living in the area of Clare where he was born and spent almost his entire life, and that there had recently been a tragedy in the family. It ceased being a parlour game at that point and felt intrusive. A similar thing happened when I was researching the Tomkins family.

What became clear about Killeen by looking into his life after Whitechapel is that he never really progressed beyond being a local GP in an area in which his family were seemingly quite influential.

I was left with the impression that he was either:

Not very ambitious,

Not overly competent,

or, to put a positive slant on it, very dedicated to the poor people of his part of County Clare.

I’ve no idea if any of those, singly, or in combination are true.

I am aware of this - I followed your reasoning on the other site. I donīt post there, but I read much of it. I am currently fascinated with your exchange with Pierre/Kristina.

Noting that she had a typically Swedish name unnerved me, though...

By the bye; if, as I understand things, the suggested killer died before the Pinchin Street woman did, then I have my verdict of "not guilty" ready...

[Fisherman]

Someone seems to have made a mistake. If the case for a charge of illegal killing of some description was based on Killeen’s medical evidence, perhaps that was at fault in some way. Or perhaps the police drew the wrong conclusion from the evidence.

Incidentally, there is no requirement on anyone to prove or disprove Killeen’s competence. However, if in researching his background we find certain indications that not only was he very green but his training may have been lacking in some way, it’s worth discussing. At least I think so.

And I am fine with it, as long as we prioritize "could" over "would".

[Joshua Rogan]

No, they didn’t. And what’s strangest of all, there wasn’t even a medical cause of death shown on her death cert. That’s either a major oversight, or it shows they weren’t totally sure what killed her.

Wynne Baxter, the coroner, was a man of enormous experience. So we have to weigh the possibility of he and/or John Hall (the Whitechapel registrar) having made a glaring error or their not being sure what the cause of death was.

This is where blind faith in professionals lets you down. It becomes toss a coin time.

Wasn't Tabram's inquest held by Deputy Coroner George Collier, rather than Wynne Baxter?

[MrBarnett]

I am aware of this - I followed your reasoning on the other site. I donīt post there, but I read much of it. I am currently fascinated with your exchange with Pierre/Kristina.

Noting that she had a typically Swedish name unnerved me, though...

By the bye; if, as I understand things, the suggested killer died before the Pinchin Street woman did, then I have my verdict of "not guilty" ready...

It’s a bit more complicated than that. The man who died in May, 1889 was supposedly a John Doe whose death details were falsified so as to have a record of someone with a particular name having died before the killer got back to work. It seems that at least 3 medical men and the Whitechapel registrar were knowingly or otherwise involved in the scam.

It’s a bit far-fetched IMO, but it’s the sort of theory that provides an opportunity to dig into the records. And that’s what I like doing.

[MrBarnett]

Wasn't Tabram's inquest held by Deputy Coroner George Collier, rather than Wynne Baxter?

Yes it was. But Baxter certified the death himself according to the death cert.

[Fisherman]

It’s a bit more complicated than that. The man who died in May, 1889 was supposedly a John Doe whose death details were falsified so as to have a record of someone with a particular name having died before the killer got back to work. It seems that at least 3 medical men and the Whitechapel registrar were knowingly or otherwise involved in the scam.

It’s a bit far-fetched IMO, but it’s the sort of theory that provides an opportunity to dig into the records. And that’s what I like doing.

Oh, okay. I just noted that the guy suffering form a combination of pneumonia and a cut throat was dead at an early stage, and thought that he was the alleged Ripper. I need to look closer next time, but I was kind of put off when the alphabetic game was launched. Anyway, this aint the thread for it, but thanks for informing me!

The scam sounds a bit over the top - but who am I to advise against believing in scams...?

[MrBarnett]

Oh, okay. I just noted that the guy suffering form a combination of pneumonia and a cut throat was dead at an early stage, and thought that he was the alleged Ripper. I need to look closer next time, but I was kind of put off when the alphabetic game was launched. Anyway, this aint the thread for it, but thanks for informing me!

The scam sounds a bit over the top - but who am I to advise against believing in scams...?

She has an answer to the Mizen scam too.

I believe she is Swedish, she certainly studied there.

Now back to Killeen (though not for me).

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

I've been keeping tabs on the whole HMR cryptic clue killer, but I'm averse to buying it so far. Could do with a dedicated thread really? But I seriously doubt Kristina "Pierre" Nordqvist will join a discussion over here.