Eddowes' gut cut

[Joshua Rogan]

I would be even more confident to say that he did not remove the organs at the crime scenes.

Except that, undoubtedly, the killer did remove organs at the crime scenes. He didn't take them away, but he did pull or cut the intestines from the abdomen. I'm interested to know why you think he did this if he wasn't interested in removing internal organs....please don't say he was a freemason.

[Abby Normal]

Abby, dont encourage Trevor, lol.


Trevor beleives the organs were removed at the mortuary by persons unknown..


Good to see you around, not noticed ypu last week or so.


Steve

thanks El

LOL. yes Ive heard that idea before from him, but the way he worded it in this latest made it sound like the killer removed the organs somewhere else--I thought he may have been on to a new "theory".

didn't trow have the same idea with his Mann suspect-the mortuary attendant?

[Elamarna]

Abby, dont encourage Trevor, lol.


Trevor beleives the organs were removed at the mortuary by persons unknown..


Good to see you around, not noticed ypu last week or so.


Steve

[Elamarna]

As a long shot I wouldn't rule out the killer of one some or all of the victims being from either of those categories but i wouldn't wager a bet on it and if that were the case, then I would be even more confident to say that he did not remove the organs at the crime scenes.

Yes we have done the cuts to the clothing before, but they are real and cannot be ignored.

Yes and we are beginning to agree. I dont know if its you agreeing with me or vica versa !

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Probably abit of both Trevor, sure we will be at swords again before end of year, thats the subject for you.
I dont ignore the clothing i just diagree, and that too is the way of things.

And i doubt we will ever agree about the removal, unless there is significant new evidence.

All the best


Steve

[Abby Normal]

As a long shot I wouldn't rule out the killer of one some or all of the victims being from either of those categories but i wouldn't wager a bet on it and if that were the case, then I would be even more confident to say that he did not remove the organs at the crime scenes.

Yes we have done the cuts to the clothing before, but they are real and cannot be ignored.

Yes and we are beginning to agree. I dont know if its you agreeing with me or vica versa !

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

hello Trevor

he did not remove the organs at the crime scenes.

He didn't? where did he remove them then?

[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor
We will agree on a jabbing/stabbing action Trevor, but not on the cuts to the clothing. We have done all that before have we not.
Never the less it certainly argues away from a surgically/medically trained person.
However not sure how it applies to a butcher or slaughter man.

Slowly we see a little nearing of views on some issues.

Steve

As a long shot I wouldn't rule out the killer of one some or all of the victims being from either of those categories but i wouldn't wager a bet on it and if that were the case, then I would be even more confident to say that he did not remove the organs at the crime scenes.

Yes we have done the cuts to the clothing before, but they are real and cannot be ignored.

Yes and we are beginning to agree. I dont know if its you agreeing with me or vica versa !

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Fisherman]

If Trevor and Fisherman's inside out cut direction is accurate this would categorically rule out somebody with medical training as the Ripper as the usual dissection or surgical method would be the knife on the outer skin cutting down through the tissue, spreading the layers as you advance, rather than an inside out disembowelling

Paul

I donīt think the killer was medically trained, but I would not categorically rule out such a man - all we can say is that IF he was medically trained, then he did not employ his knowledge on the murder sites. That could all boil down to him not wanting to disclose his training, if you ask me.

[Elamarna]

Ooh, I wouldn't go that far, Trevor. I get the impression that there was an initial puncture wound just under the (exposed) sternum, effectively to gain purchase with the knife, but thereafter it was mainly an exercise in ripping.

Hi Gareth, i am happy with either several stabs joined up or more likely a ripping cut which is at varing depth.

Steve

[Elamarna]

I think all of this now corroborates my belief that she was in fact stabbed several times in the abdomen through her outer clothing and the knife either drawn up or down The description of the cuts to the clothing also corroborates this and the angle of the cuts seems to show that in fact she was stabbed and the knife drawn down.

Showing that the motive was nothing more than murder and mutilation carried out in a frenzied attack. Something I would suggest goes to negate the theory that the killers motive was harvesting organs.

Please no replies suggesting the taking of the organs was then an afterthought

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Trevor
We will agree on a jabbing/stabbing action Trevor, but not on the cuts to the clothing. We have done all that before have we not.
Never the less it certainly argues away from a surgically/medically trained person.
However not sure how it applies to a butcher or slaughter man.

Slowly we see a little nearing of views on some issues.


Steve

[Sam Flynn]

I think all of this now corroborates my belief that she was in fact stabbed several times in the abdomen through her outer clothing and the knife either drawn up or down

Ooh, I wouldn't go that far, Trevor. I get the impression that there was an initial puncture wound just under the (exposed) sternum, effectively to gain purchase with the knife, but thereafter it was mainly an exercise in ripping.

[kjab3112]

Thanks for the insights, Paul. The triangular wound just below the sternum in the "un-stitched" mortuary photo I referred to a few posts back could therefore have accounted for the cuts to both liver and spleen? Would the same apply for the cut to the left hand side of the pancreas?

Certainly could

[Trevor Marriott]

Thanks for the insights, Paul. The triangular wound just below the sternum in the "un-stitched" mortuary photo I referred to a few posts back could therefore have accounted for the cuts to both liver and spleen? Would the same apply for the cut to the left hand side of the pancreas?

I think all of this now corroborates my belief that she was in fact stabbed several times in the abdomen through her outer clothing and the knife either drawn up or down The description of the cuts to the clothing also corroborates this and the angle of the cuts seems to show that in fact she was stabbed and the knife drawn down.

Showing that the motive was nothing more than murder and mutilation carried out in a frenzied attack. Something I would suggest goes to negate the theory that the killers motive was harvesting organs.

Please no replies suggesting the taking of the organs was then an afterthought

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Sam Flynn]

The left lobe of the liver is frequently in the midline and would be easily damaged by a blind stab to the epigastric area below the sternum (or in front of the xiphisternum). As for the spleen, I've seen a splenic laceration from an appendix operation so it certainly is possible from a midline abdominal incision.

Thanks for the insights, Paul. The triangular wound just below the sternum in the "un-stitched" mortuary photo I referred to a few posts back could therefore have accounted for the cuts to both liver and spleen? Would the same apply for the cut to the left hand side of the pancreas?

[kjab3112]

If Trevor and Fisherman's inside out cut direction is accurate this would categorically rule out somebody with medical training as the Ripper as the usual dissection or surgical method would be the knife on the outer skin cutting down through the tissue, spreading the layers as you advance, rather than an inside out disembowelling

Paul

[kjab3112]

To me, at least the first reported stab to Eddowes' liver was quite likely collateral damage inflicted with the initial plunge of the knife into the abdomen, as Brown says: "Behind this [the ensiform cartilage], the liver was stabbed as if by the point of a sharp instrument".

He goes on to say "Below this was another incision into the liver of about two and a half inches, and below this the left lobe of the liver was slit through by a vertical cut." These could have been caused by the initial abdominal incision, and/or sustained as a result of the killer's going after the left kidney - it's perhaps significant in this context that Brown reports a slit in the left lobe of the liver, which would be some distance away from the otherwise midline cut down her upper abdomen. Brown also indicates that the spleen, another organ adjacent to the left kidney, had been damaged, and that the pancreas had been cut on the left hand side.

Hi Sam

The left lobe of the liver is frequently in the midline and would be easily damaged by a blind stab to the epigastric area below the sternum (or in front of the xiphisternum). As for the spleen, I've seen a splenic laceration from an appendix operation so it certainly is possible from a midline abdominal incision.

Paul